LAZARUS is DEAD!

[JG Shields]

Peter, you are so right. We all place the emphasys of what we want in a vehicle on something else. This makes comparisons between vehicles somewhat sub-jective in the readers view. I place a lot of empasys on versatility between riding comfort and 4x4 ability. Underneath that quite a number of bullet points will apply when writing an article. May be it is a good idea if the forum readers can help with characteristics/subjects/issues which they would like to see being compared between LC and Patrol. Keep in mind that my expeience stretch accross the Patrol 3.oDi, 4.8 and the LC 105GX 4500EFi. I love both these vehicles, therefore the report will be done in a positive view.

Gerrie, sal ons nie solank lekke begin werk aan hierdie een nie????

[OB1]

Just to add to Pieter's comment.

Defender is capable offroad, dont let the lack of axile difflocks fool you. All the rest of the comments I totally agree

4) Jeep Wrangler 5door (Advantage, Diesels are economical, lots of them around, so spares will become common, lots of accessories available if you are into that. Disadvantage is lack of packing space, you have to fit a sort of roll cage to be able to fit a roofrack,l spares availability in Africa

[Peter Connan]

OB1, I have to admit that I use my car much more frequently to drive trails than as an overlander, and I think trails tend to have far more (and far more severe) cross-axle type obstacles than are normally expreienced in overlanding use, and also my that I have never myself driven a coil-spring landy off-road. All my experience driving Landies has been with older Series 3 vehicles. However from that and watching landies struggling on trails, I am not impressed.
I discounted the Jeep because of the lack of space and the issues with fitting a roofrack. Similirly I left out the newer Discos due to their complexity and the many reliability horror stories I have heard. I also dismissed the Pajero, again because in my opinion formed only by watching other guys struggle, they don't really like going off-road and bits keep falling off of them.

JG my list looks something like this:
1) Off-road ability.
2) Enough space for my family of four and all our gemors.
3) Robustness and reliability particularly in the long term (since I can only afford a car once it is 10-20years old).
4) How easy it is to repair.
5) Is it powerful and comfortable enough to easily handle long stretches of freeway driving.
6) Safety and rigidity.
7) Fuel consumption and range.
8) Availability of spares and dealer backup.

[OB1]

OK that is cleared, I gave my opinion out of an overlander point of view. On trails the lack of difflock will show very soon, especially in a driver with less experience.

My 2c
It is not a LC. I respect the vehicle hugely, but I don't like Toyotas many would disagree
It is not a Gelandewagen. Respect again, but the price you have to pay for one of those, and cost of spares makes it a nono
Jeep is a good offroader, as well as overlander. Lack in space and spares are a problem
New Discos should not be discontinued. Ask Koos Best used to drive a Patrol, now has a Disco3 TDV6 speak very highly of it. Personally I agree with the complexity problem, even if reliability has improved (They lift the top to do a timinng belt service )

I do think the Patrol is the answer. Why else would I be doing lurking around here?

[Peter Connan]

OB1 I have great respect for what Land Rover have acheived with the Disco 3 and 4. On the road it is amazing, and under conditions that suit it, it is extremely impressive. In terms of electronically controlling what a vehicle does off-road, there is probably no competition for these vehicles. The height-controlled independent air suspension gives it an advantage in ride comfort that should be impossible to beat with conventional steel springs, particularly if you add live axles into the mix.

But I have very grave doubts about the robustness and long-term durability and reliability of these vehicles. I know a guy who has already had to replace his front wishbones three times, and have heard what I beleive are reliable reports of all manner of ailments befalling them. Relatively minor damage can cause them to go into a limp mode from which a bush mechanic like me would not be able to doctor them back to functional health. A friend of mine (Tinus Lotz, a forum member) went on a trip to Mozambique a while ago. There was a Disco 3 in the party, which suffered a puncture to a pipe in the air suspension system, caused by a palm frond. The leak was easily repaired, but limp mode made the vehicle unusable untill it had been trailered to Maputo to be re-set. In fact the only vehicle that completed the trip intact and with no failures was the Patrol. Both the Defender and the Jeep rubicon on the trip also had to be rescued from limp mode due to tiny issues while the Triton's bumpers fell off on the corrugated roads.

Now I well realize that this is not what the majority of owners of these vehicles experience, but if it happens far away from anywhere, your holiday can be comprehensively buggered.

[Kagiso II]

I am with OBI on the dislike of Toyota [the vehicles does impress] but due to the "brain washing" approach and most [if not all] of the motoring magazines only sing the praises of Toyota (they get money for it - I know] but WHY on this earth do they find it necessary to refer to "indestructible" "parts available" and even "invincible" Hi-Lux in the opening sentence of a road test on a Ford Ranger, Mazda and Isuzu and even in the Triton they point out "weaknesses" of the others and then claim how good the Toy is on those same aspects... Therefore I chose to do my over-landing [and trails] in a NISSAN. (attitude)
More is the pity that the Nissan "factory" - instead of supporting the people with older vehicles, just cast us aside.
Long term problem with that - the 2-nd hand value of Nissan is thrown right down the drain - (Toyota, on the other hand INCREASE in value on the older models .. because they get spares and service at reasonable price)
The "lower value" Nissan now suddenly becomes less of an option when I buy - because I will loose more on it on the resale.
NOW - what does a "money wise" person buy? Yippp, you've guessed it.
Jeep - they are already where Nissan is headed for
Rangy, Landi .. a history of unreliability which will take them years to shake off .

So - I don't buy Toyota purely based on my Irish hardegat stubbornness [I am still jealous of that VX 100 of JG - it is a beaut, and I would not mind owning one .. that is HONESTY for you? ]

BUT all said and done - HazyPatrol & I had a long talk the other day -= he chose his Patrol by putting the Patrol and the Cruiser on hoists, next to each other - He chose the Patrol on what he saw underneath, on what & how the Patrol is constructed [or designed or built -- you choose]
(We are about to sell Agarob [we have to] - as soon as the water-in-diesel issue is resolved and Agarob fixed back to 100% .. I will miss that "Red-Ox" dearly - no other of my 32 vehicles over the past 40 years has given the "pride of ownership" that he has. And that's a fact]

[Peter Connan]

Another thing I have discovered is that a "perfect" vehicle, in which everything is as I expect it, seldom worms it's way into my heart as deeply as a vehicle which surprises me every once in a while.
This surprise could take the form of a very minor "niggle" or as better-than-expected performance, and is obviously very personal and subjective, and some people will see the things you like as serious negative attributes. They can sometimes force you to entirely re-evaluate your original set of priorities.

[Jules]

The perfect vehicle is a PAID VEHICLE with that you can go anywhere

Shalom
Jules

[Abri Hoffman]

This discussion is getting very interesting

Oom Mac, I am with you on the Toyota issue. Spoke to a guy a while ago who owns a Nissan, Toyota and GM dealerships.
I asked him why so many people prefer Toy's as my experience with them was no better than with Nissan. His answer is that people grew a "str0nd vlies" over the brain.
I despise Toyota's purely because everybody think they are holier than tho. My experience with Toyota. On a 100 Series Cruiser that I owned 4 years ago - Toyota took 3 months to try and sort out an overheating issue that my brother and I sorted out in 45 minutes. Radiator for the vehicle was not available in SA and had to be imported. Harmonic balancer took 2 months to bring in.
On my Camry I needed a bolt that hold the exhaust manifold to the engine. After three attempts and 5 weeks I decided to cut an old bolt to size and fit it. So much for availability of spares.
Toyota's are good cars. Are they really better than the opposition though?

It is interesting how some vehicles grow on you. Now I have had 25 vehicles in 20 years and drove in access of 2 million km's. Some of these cars I loved, some I hated, some were appliances.
When I bought the GQ the idea was that I will drive it for a year and buy a 4.8. I will be driving it 3 years in October and have had the opportunity and funds to buy that 4.8. Just could not convince myself to let go of the GQ. This vehicle has completely surpassed all expectations. I have done 50k km in the time I have it and apart from a clutch hose failing nothing has gone wrong. It is permanently loaded, only used for trails and overlanding. It is heavy on fuel and frustratingly underpowered onroad. But boy what a pleasure offroad. Compared to the Cruiser it is old, not as nice inside, smaller, heavier, uglier but I enjoy it so much more.

Both were bought cash, both had around 200k km when I bought it. Both did Hexriver 4x4 trail without once using difflock. Must be something to do with the Patrol being the underdog.

Regarding the whole resale debate. If you buy new I agree but second hand - load of choll. Paid R35k for my GQ will probably still get R35k in 10 years time. The first buyer take the knock on resale thereafter it is par for the course and I perfer paying less and losing less interest.

[Obelix]

Ek lees wat die manne sê. Ons moet pas-op dat ons nie die pot mis sit nie.
'n Saak het twee kante, die een kant is die produk (Toyota & Nissan etc) en aan die ander kant is die mens (Agente & drywer & mechanics). Die mens is die probleem. Kyk(onderhoud) die mens nie na die produk nie, dan gaan hy vroër of later breek. As die mens nie 'n probleem kan uitsorteer nie as gevolg van incompetence gaan die produk staan. As daar probleme is met n produk is dit die mens (ingeneurs) wat soos hulle g@tte gedink het. Ek ry 'n GQ, maar daar is 'n bitter smaak in my mond omtrent my GQ. Die verkoper (mens) het my bevark, die kilometers is teruggedraai en oor goed wat ek hom gevra het, het hy gelieg. Dit het my al R40,000 gekos om goed reg te maak wat nagelaat is om na te kyk(versienings). Met ander woorde dit is nie die produk se skuld dat daar bitter smaak in my mond is nie, dit is asgevolg van die mens wat die GQ (produk) sleg/swak laat lyk.

Maar op die ou end is dit 'n koue, lewelose stuk yster en ons moet pos-op dat ons nie van die goed 'n afgod maak nie. Ja almal het hulle voorkeure en laat ons (mens) ander se keuses respekteer, en kom ons ondersteun mekaar eerder met raad/hulp en vriendkap as om die produk en sy/haar keuse af te kraak. Dit is immers hulle geld wat daarvoor betaal.

Dit is net my persoonlike siening van hoe ek die ding sien.