Defender vs Patrol

[G-MAN]

I own a 2000 Defender 90 2.8i (bmw) from new and touch wood no problems!

[Peter Connan]

Dieselfan I am pretty sure that the LR traction control is the best in the market, with the possible exception of Jeep who have been at it for longer, although their solutions are very different.

But I am a Mechanical engineer, and therefore by default prefer mechanical systems like lockers. In the final analasys, current traction control systems can only react, they cannot predict, and therefore there will be some slippage and therefore loss of momentum before the system reacts, whereas a driver of a locker-equiped car can be pro-active and engage the locker before slippage occurs.

I have also heard lots of stories about the LR traction control failing in dune sand. What happens is that when slippage at multiple wheels is detected, the system cuts engine power and the vehicle immediately bogs down. The drivers in question were unable to disable this function. Personally I do not know whether this is purely a lack of training on the vehicles, but it seems to me that the terrain response system is more difficult to operate than the Patrol's system.

One thing i will give traction control: a person who does not know how to operate a locker can very easily break a half-shaft, whereas traction control will not put shock-loads through the system. But then again how many patrolers have you come across who have managed to break their half-shafts?

[KOOS BEST]

Dieselfan I am pretty sure that the LR traction control is the best in the market, with the possible exception of Jeep who have been at it for longer, although their solutions are very different.

But I am a Mechanical engineer, and therefore by default prefer mechanical systems like lockers. In the final analasys, current traction control systems can only react, they cannot predict, and therefore there will be some slippage and therefore loss of momentum before the system reacts, whereas a driver of a locker-equiped car can be pro-active and engage the locker before slippage occurs.

I have also heard lots of stories about the LR traction control failing in dune sand. What happens is that when slippage at multiple wheels is detected, the system cuts engine power and the vehicle immediately bogs down. The drivers in question were unable to disable this function. Personally I do not know whether this is purely a lack of training on the vehicles, but it seems to me that the terrain response system is more difficult to operate than the Patrol's system.

One thing i will give traction control: a person who does not know how to operate a locker can very easily break a half-shaft, whereas traction control will not put shock-loads through the system. But then again how many patrolers have you come across who have managed to break their half-shafts?

I use my vehicle , weather permitting off course nearly every weekend on the beach, either towing a boat or a trailer with kayaks.
I have seen vehicle's with TC getting stuck(they actually loose momentum).
TC is for ruts, rocks, dongas etc NOT FOR SAND
In my D3 I set the Terrain Response to SAND and as the book says on deep sand like beach work or dunes switch off the DSC.(this is all in the manual)
Doing this she pulls off in very wet sand , go up deep dunes without loosing any traction or momentum, but I am convinced that 90%+ of all drivers of my type of vehicle dont know it, the manual has never been read by them.I can stop on a dune and pull off , with this , its incredible.

I also know of people with TC vehicles that keep it switched off when towing through chobe or savuti, reason they say it increases the life of the brakes.The swaying of the vehicle with the trailer keeps the TC to work overtime it seems.

Just for info , traction control TC and Terrain response TR works completely different in L/Rovers. TR adapts the vehicle to the terrain, for instance say you choose rock crawl, the diffs and gearbox will be locked, torgue converter will be locked,throttle response travel increase, and low range will be selected as well as HDC(the latter HDC is actually TC in operation) and she will raise by 70mm

[David]

What worries me with electronic traction control is what I observed on a 4x4 track recently. This guy had a Disco 2 (I think) and said his one ABS sensor failed and it will cost him over R2k to replace.

Now - because the electronics picked up that this one sensor is faulty the computer disabled the ABS and the traction control.

As a result he was struggling with the simplest of obstacles even though he had a well kitted out vehicle...

I think I will rather stick to a manual mechanical system

[Mrowka]

Also seen electronic traction control and ABS go haywire too many times in thick mud. Do not want.

[dieselfan]

Peter, most 4x4's with TC can be disabled for sand, same as the pathy. The getting stuck in sand due to TC is back when the Toureg was first launched YEARS back. Nowadays it's user error. My Pathy lifts it's wheels way more often than a 4x4 should but honestly speaking the TC - since - I've learnt to work the way it does has never limited my progress. I've done some obstacles that solid axle (LSD) vehicles have had to race and clunk through at slow controlled speeds. I have disconnected my sway bars for the last few trails - what a difference. According to one guy same travel as a stock LC so 50% patrol? .

I must add though my mileage on my discs and brakes is pathetic - it might also be my driving style to an extent... what I don't like about TC though is my tyres get ripped up way quicker too. Here's the low down, TC is immensely capable and fine for an overlander but for doing trails like De Wildt with all it's axle twisters gonna be expensive.

As for the VS thread, what are the roof load ratings? I like the Def with their ladders, don't see many Patrolies with ladders.

[Peter Connan]

Dieselfan LSD's are great for going quickly on dirt roads and a bit of mud, but not great on a trail (although they are better than nothing). This was very obvious this weekend looking at the difference between the Patrols with their lockers and the Safaris with their LSDs and lesser articulation.

I think officially the Landy can carry more on the roof, but I have seen several where the owners had to brace the roof with a roll cage or external structure (among others Kingsley Holgate on their Outside Edge expedition), but never seen this needed on a Patrol. The Patrol is supposed to be able to carry 80 or 100kg on the roof, but in Botswana last year I had 2 spare wheels (70kg), three jerry cans (80kg), 10l of oil (10kg), my hi-lift jack (15kg), gas bottle (7kg) and three large plastick packing crates with all sorts of stuff (40-50kg), so a total of about 220kg, and no hassles despite pushing hard on badly corrugated and bumpy sand roads. his is probably already far too much for vehicle stability.

The story with the ladders is twofold: firstly, with the landy there are only two ways to get to the roof rack: Either by a ladder, or by climbing onto the bonnet (that is what those aluminium tread plates are fitted for), whereas on the Patrol the spare wheel is mounted such that it can be used to get onto the roof rack, and secondly the landy's narrow door allows fitment of a ladder, whereas on the Patrol it would actually have to be mounted to the "weak" door.

I have seen some plastic steps that strap around the spare wheel, which I quite like. JG made some metal steps that strapped onto the back of his wheel that does something similar. I have also cosidered sticking skateboard tape to the edges of my bonnet to allow access from the front, but my bullbar makes it difficult to get up there.

[Herrie]

Hi Dieselfan, on the Nissan4x4.co.za site is also a guy that had probems with is Pathfinder on sand - can you maybe help him?

I did get a input from Nissan SA that I added.

I just wanted to add the link and saw that you did reply to him already - thanks!

[Russ Kellermann]

I think officially the Landy can carry more on the roof,

Negative - Land Rover factory spec roof weight = 75kg only.

Yet look how people load the hell out of them and wonder why the wind shield is always cracked on every landrover.

Interesting fact - Gelandewagen roof weight spec = 200kg!!!

[Peter Connan]

Eye Russ, the G also has the highest side-slope angle I have ever seen specified: 54 Degrees (Patrol is 48, landy used to be 45, not sure what it is now).

But that and it's front locker are still not enough reasons to justify the price in my opinion, and it has tiny little wheels for it's weight, and only 4 seats.