Defender vs Patrol

[Grant]

Koos,

Hope you are happy with your Disco. Did you have the same opinion when you still had your Patrol ??????

[KOOS BEST]

Interesting replies and for most the posts NOT what I was expecting

I have no doubt the reliability will be better with the Patrol but Koos does make some interesting comments.

The surprises on Koos' post are

Packing space , sorry I disagree 110 wins
Traction, 110 wins, ek is hier 110% seker daarvan
Articulation, no contest 110 wins
Towing , 110 wins
Gearbox , 110 wins
Economy , 1110 wins
Running cost , Nissan Patrol in SA dont have any indies for parts etc, L/Rover in all major centres, parts MUCH MUCH cheaper then Nissan

Koos how is the 2.4 PUMA engine the highest mileage engine in europe? I thought it was a new CRD engine - sourced from Peugeot like the D3/4. Big upgrade (reliability wise) over the BMW engin.

All right let's get this straight, Dieselfan you started this post by saying answer objectively , WHAT YOU GUYS MUST REALISE IT'S A CURRENT PATROL VS A CURRENT 2007 -2011 DEFENDER PUMA.NOT VS SERIES OR ANY OTHER DEFENDER PRE 2007
This defender has got a Ford Duratorq engine,made and designed in the UK, this powertrain was specially selected and altered by L/Rover because of it's long stroke, can work at extreme angles and all parts will still get oil. This engine do over 550 000km - million before any overhaul.This engine is used in Ford Transit VANS and a the same design in the new London taxi's.
The tdv6 and sdv6 as in D3 and D4 was designed by L/Rover/Jaguar/Peugeot/Citroen
The Puma 110 have electronic traction control on all wheels with centre diff lock, the smoothest of any previous Defender gearboxes and its 6 spd , you do UNDER 2000rpm at 120 km/h,(the best of any defender before) not 3000rpm like in the Trol(manual). It also legally tows 3.5 ton and carry over a ton
And I have mentioned it before , articulation is much better in standard form vs Trol, have you seen a Defender after a TGM suspension upgrade? You guys compare upgraded suspensions vs normal suspensions

What Patrol needs is the Renault designed V6 Diesel(as in Navara) coupled to the same ZF 6 spd auto gearbox is in the Discoveries .

Dieselfan , your question about compare the 4.8 Patrol to the Defender , no the Trol 4.8 compare it to the D4 V8 , that is the same market.

Remember I answered this objectively , Puma Defender 2007+ vs Patrol 3.0Di 2007+

Land Rover is maar die swart skaap , you love it or hate it.
Imagine the history of Fortuner had a GREEN AND GOLD BADGE , the country will be up in arms, about the roll overs,injector failures and bad design, but NO its a Toyota same with L/C 200 problems

[KOOS BEST]

Koos,

Hope you are happy with your Disco. Did you have the same opinion when you still had your Patrol ??????

Yes always have been, search all my post previously when I drove the same vehicle you have.

Happy with my D3 , the best I ever driven, design, engine, gearbox, powertrain and suspension.

[Peter Connan]

Koos if you read my post carefully I did not compare the Patrol with the Series Landies, I only said that I had not driven one, and therefore did not comment on things like power, cost of ownership, reliability or comfort. I was only comparing the fact that my car idles over obstacles that the Defenders had to be towed out of.
And I doubt it is the NUT holding the steering wheel, because I do not consider myself particularly talented in this department. And while my car has slightly modified suspension, I regularly drive in company of two guys with unmodified suspensions (one Y60 4.2 and one Y61 4.8) and another buddy has a 3l Y61 which was standard when we started playing with it, and I doubt that I have significantly more wheel travel than they do.

Somewhere I have pictures of Patrols and Defenders parked on the same obstacle where the defender's wheels are obviously much further from the ground than the Patrols. Perhaps the Defender needs to be loaded to reach it's full travel, I don't know.

Now I am going to get slightly objective again:
The movie at the start of this thread was shot on Land Rover's development centre, where they have been tested and developed since 1947. If a Defender can't beat any other vehicle on it's home ground, it must be really useless.
Further, I got the feeling that the tester's main problem is with the bulk (read width) of the Patrol. In England, where everything is narrow and cramped, this is quite understandable, and particularly on Land Rover's test facility, where the roads have litteraly been built by Land Rovers. The Patrol is 150mm wider and it's track is 140mm wider than the Defender's. But here in SA we have space, and the roads are not built by Landies anymore either.

Furthermore, I am struggling to understand how the Defender's 50th birthday can be approaching. The Series 1 was released in 1947 or so, and the Series 3 was still in production in the early 80's, so where are they starting their countdown?

[Kagiso II]

he he he - julle laaik van poo praat dietyd vanni dag -- Koos - oompie dubbil dêrr jou - gaan sit hirri op die CRUISER forum [veranner net "Patrol" na Cruiser] en kyk wat daai klomp te sê het... hulle sal saam op WEGRY se blad nuwe woord soek vir 'n "LONG DROP" [en ons praat nie Naas of rugby nie

[Peter Connan]

The best way to determine which vehicle has the best articulation is to drive them up an RTI ramp. Unfortunately I neither have both vehicles, nor do I have an RTI ramp handy, so instead I trolled the internet for a couple of hours.

The results of my research indicate that a standard defender 90 scores 580 on a 20 degree ramp. This translates to an articulation angle (the angle of the front axle relative to the rear axle of 17.8 degrees, and the height that the front wheel lifts off the ground is 454mm. Assuming that the angle between the two axles are the same for the 110 (which should be a safe bet as the suspension arms etc are the same) then for the 110 that translates to an RTI score of 475.

A standard LWB Patrol does 660. This translates to an articulation angle of 26 Degrees and a wheel lift of 670mm. The SWB scores 816.

Now I realize that these figures may be wrong, and also they come from different sources, so I am not guaranteeing this.

I also fully realize that articulation is not the only measure of of-road ability, and that both vehicles have mechanisms to help out when the suspension runs out of talent. The Defender uses traction control which works on all four wheels so in theory ultimate traction with one or more wheels in the air is better, while the Patrol has a locker on the rear axle only. But with a locker there is no delay while the computer tries to make up it's mind, so momentum is never compromised.

[Tinus lotz]

Ja i hear all the specks ,the best this ,the best that. >>>>>>>>>>
my friend Hein has had i think 9 defenders in total he is on the forum he spend plenty money on trying to get the defender to ride with the patrols he will post his findings tomorrow
all i can say is after all that he drives a patrol now and has no more reason to [DEFEND [/color]his defender >>>>>

[Sias]

Miskien moet ek maar maak soos Peter sê en altwee transfercases op die 84 sit en die 4.5 se diffs ook opsit en 35's opsit, dan kan ons die hele L/R vs Patrol argument in die bed sit!
'n '84 Patrol met 'n 4.5 wat flex soos 'n 18 jarige Chinese gimnas wat loop op plekke wat L/R nog net in boeke van gelees het...

[G-MAN]

Sias, nou praat jy!

[dieselfan]

I like where the thread has gone, I understand there will be a tad of emotion but I started this thread from lack of knowledge on the two vehicles. It is NOT a stereotypical VS thread.
I also know generally Patrol owners have thick skins - Toy guys get moer in quick so would get honest answers - ones of respect.

Koos I read your post on the Def being reliable yet when I go through posts on the other LRforums all I see are lemons such as bearings, gaskets on the puma. So hence my reliability assessment, I do know that the D3's have long solved that general perception. On the patrol forums the issues seem less "drastic". What did scare me though was buying a Def second hand, the owners seem to seriously take poor care.

We've had 5 LR's in the fam (3 duds - sucky BMW engines) no Def's but I'm at heart a Patrol guy. Still when I buy I enjoy looking at cars with my "brain".

For me, I only do +-12 - 15k km per year nowadays with the "holiday" car so am looking at ALL options - Petrol included, might have to change my name...

Peter good point about the TC, I know from MY perspective my flipping brakes and discs don't last 1/4 as long as they should as a result, BUT the Def might engage alot quicker than most TC's??

Tinus, I'd love to hear Heins opinion, altho after 9, is he not just bored??

The whole weight thing IS important too esp with the cops getting serious with overloading, I did briefly consider Toy's then I saw I could be expected to pay bribes at their limits...