Defender vs Patrol

[dieselfan]

All this talk about single digit kpl does make me nervous coming from cars that get 20...and 14km/l for the 2.5tonne 4x4s...that 5 liter engine is thirsty but still gets me excited. I'm warming to the idea of not needing an OBC to tell me consumption and just looking at the badge.

I also now know why most Patrollers and LC owners use km/l and NOT l/100km. 6-7km/l sounds less bad than 14-17l/100km as that is almost R30 per 100km more. but 6-7km/l "ag whats one km per liter extra...?!"

[KOOS BEST]

For some reason many D3's leave Kgalagadi's "sinkplaat" roads on loadbeds.

Ag siestog , nog n URBAN LEGEND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dis reg , Land Rover maak str@nt voertuie, bly weg van hulle , veral die D3 se onderstel en suspensie seker die swakste , moenie glo wat ander se nie.

Daai skrewie oog kort gat mannetjies wat walvis vleis vreet en dolfyne doodmaak en renoster horings nodig het maak ALTYD die beste voertuie by verre bo die Europeers nog altyd en sal seker nog in die toekoms.Hul voertuie het nooit horrorstories nie , nooit nooit nooit nooit.Alles loop reg altyd reg.

Eks is jammer ek het ooit erken dat ander fabrikate veral L/Rover SOMS, PARTYKEER, SELDE, miskien ooit iets beter kan maak as die Japanese fabrikate.

Weereens jammer daaroor.

Ek hoop jul aanvaar my verskoning.

[Patrol4.8]

For some reason many D3's leave Kgalagadi's "sinkplaat" roads on loadbeds.

Ag siestog , nog n URBAN LEGEND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dis reg , Land Rover maak str@nt voertuie, bly weg van hulle , veral die D3 se onderstel en suspensie seker die swakste , moenie glo wat ander se nie.

Daai skrewie oog kort gat mannetjies wat walvis vleis vreet en dolfyne doodmaak en renoster horings nodig het maak ALTYD die beste voertuie by verre bo die Europeers nog altyd en sal seker nog in die toekoms.Hul voertuie het nooit horrorstories nie , nooit nooit nooit nooit.Alles loop reg altyd reg.

Eks is jammer ek het ooit erken dat ander fabrikate veral L/Rover SOMS, PARTYKEER, SELDE, miskien ooit iets beter kan maak as die Japanese fabrikate.

Weereens jammer daaroor.

Ek hoop jul aanvaar my verskoning.

Koos, jammer as ek jou ontstel het.
My doel is nie om die D3 af te kraak nie. Ek dink net enige voornemende kopers behoort te weet wat kan gebeur, net soos almal hier weet van die Patrols se grenade(3l) enjins. So ja die Patrols gee ook soms probleme, ons ontken dit net nie.

My ouers besoek Kgalagadi elke jaar en in die laaste drie jaar het hulle 3 D3's die park op vragmotors sien verlaat.
Ek sal hulle vra om volgende keer foto's daarvan te neem, dan kan jy self besluit of dit werklik "urban legend" is.

My vriend se D3 is werklik 'n indrukwekkende voertuig, ek wonder net hoekom hy wat al vir jare LR's ry amper R50k gespandeer het op 'n eksta 2 jaar se diensplan en waarborg. Dis 'n klomp geld vir gemoedsrus .

[Kagiso II]

MANNE - Oompie praat net EEN keer - [hoor maar by Kleinkinners Owie en Emma - Jy sal hoor: "Pappa piets, Oupa BISSIM" - so kom ons maak sommer nou 'n "deal"
Iedereen kan se van enige maak voertuig Soos hy daaroor voel - dis vryheid van spraak [en smaak ???]
MAAR niemand mag gatwip of vereg of vies raak daaroor nie... Ons is vrinne, ons is "electric family" -

O-ja: hou by eie waarhede en nie hoorse nie.
Terwyl ek se: "Ek HOU van Toyta voertuie - die die gesindheid van die vervaardiger wat my dwars in die krop gesteek het [en nog steeds steek]

en oompie sonder nie iemand uit nie en mik ook nie op enigeen spesifiek nie ...Dit geld vir ALMAL...
Klaar gepraat.\
(Mieta Conan - pleez trans late [or early ... i never no why dey make that trans to udder lengwhich "late" ??]

[tour de frans]

Koos,die post is nie op jou gemik nie.
Dit sal maak neuk om op n Patrol forum n ander fabrikaat te laat goed lyk.Maar met n Nissan Patrol het die Japs gladnie sleggevaar nie.
Hoe kan iemand ,in my opinie,n loopring met n Patrol vergelyk.Ek praat glad nie van performance of uithou nie.Gaan skroef n graaf op jou Patrol se fender vas en kyk hoe lyk dit.Dit pas by n Defender ja.Die coke bottel in n krat gevoel pas ook by n defender wat ry gerief aanbetref.
n Voertuig of fabrikaat is net so goed soos een dit maak.En deur dit te se wil ek nie n Defender he nie.Maak nie saak of hy beter perform as die Patrol nie.
Ek kan nie sleg of dan nou goed praat van n LR nie,Ek kan in die selfde asem ook se,met hulle het ek altyd werk gehad,Maar ek beveel vir baie mense n Disco 2 V8 aan.Vir die wat n 4x4 soek,beveel ek gou die Disco aan.Baie kar vir die geld wat jy betaal en maklik om hom te onderhou.As jy vrede gemaak het met die "three amegos"( LR manne sal weet waarvan ek praat.) het die disco nie moelikheid nie.Natuurlik as jy ARB lockers voor en agter insit sal jou Disco jou nie trouble nie,dis nog n swak plek op hulle.Of ek se vir die ou wat n 4x4 soek koop vir jou n Patrol of n Cruiser,jy hoef niks te doen nie,jy kan net ry.
Cheers.

[JG Shields]

Ek gaan nou baie versigtig wees met die stuiwer wat ek in hierdie armbeurs ingooi. Smaak my as die stuiwer uit die armbeurs uitglip word hy 'n boemerang. Ek getuig nou van my eie ervaring!

Die werklike tegniese verskil tussen voertuie is baie kleiner as die persepsie ten opsigte van verskil soos dit in manne se harte en hul koppe leef. Emosie speel 'n baie groter rol as olieseels, ratkaste en suspensies. Hoor ons nie soms die opmerking: Ek hou nie van 'n BMW nie want ek hou nie van die mense wat hulle ry nie.... Ek dink baie van hierdie voertuie lag in hul moue vir ons wanneer hulle saam onder die boom staan en hul base saam om die kampvuur sit en argumenteer.

Nou vir die stuiwer wat dalk boemerang kan word. Ek dink ons stel dikwels ons tegniese onkunde en ons gebrek aan perspektief bloot wanneer ons oor die verskil tussen voertuie begin gesels.

[Peter Connan]

JG I am quite sure you are right with what you say.

Unfortunately this is probably necessary from a human point of view because:
1) It is quite difficult to get enough information together to really be able to make unbaised decisions, as most of us simply do not have the time and resources.
2) Every person who tests or uses a product will have a different experience and viewppint regarding the product because every person has a unique set of priorities and requirements, and treat our belongings differently.
3) While no two cars are really the same, even if the same robots made them, the way they have been treated by every person who has touched them also play a role in what will break how soon and how it performs.
4) If you are contemplating tackling a dangerous obstacle or long journey into possibly dagerous country, particularly with your family on board, then you must have faith and confidence in your vehicle, and I think installing that faith is probably a purely automatic and sub-concious process that takes place within each of us according to different rules and processes, shaped by our previous experience (quite possibly with completely different equipment).

Taking myself as an example, I have had quite a lot of bad experiences with electronic systems in a variety of cars, and therefore I distrust electronics to a large degree. Therefore I will always have more faith in mechanical systems and while I can appreciate the substantial improvements in almost all areas of vehicle performance the electronic revolution has brought about, I tend to distrust the vehicles that use them, and more so as they get older. And I only seem to be able to afford the cars I want when they are old.

[Stefan]

Net so Peter, daarom ry ek 'n ou Patrol, dan dink almal ek is al lankal ryk!

[Pieter du Toit]

Stefan

Ek stem - en ten minste is myne ook klaar betaal - dankie tog daarvoor!!! So ja ek is ook al lankal ryk -

Groete

[Pieter du Toit]

Hello Almal

Oo Mac se ons moet by eie waarhede hou - so ek wil vir julle almal iets wys en gee om te lees. En Koos hierdie post is nie op jou gemik nie (omdat jy ook n D3 ry) - nog minder bedoel om "brand bashing" te doen - maar bloot om te se enige fabrikaat kom met probleme (EN DAARBY SLUIT EK NISSAN IN - KYK MAAR ONS 3.0LT HANDGRENAAT MODELLE WANT N PAAR MANNE (EK INSLUITEND) OP HIERDIE FORUM VAN KAN GETUIG!!) En die frustrasies daarna met die vervaadiger om enige iets te probeer uitgerig kry.

So terloops voor ek my swaer se brief post - in die nuutste SA 4X4 by die Reader's fuel consumption log is daar 2 Patrol 4.8's - een 2003 een 2004. Die 2003 kry 23l/100km en die 2004 kry 18.7l/100km - nou is dit nou die NUT (of is dit MOER!!??) wat die stuurwiel vashou of is daar dalk fout met die 2003 model - hoekom so n groot verskil??? As ek die eienaar van die 2003 model was sou ek dink aar is fout met my kar - want ek sou AANVAAR SELFDE KAR selfde RY STEIL SELFDE PETROL VERBRUIK - MIN OF MEER TEN MINSTE!! Aikona - of haauw baas haauw - soos ons mede landgenote sou se!!

Hier is my swaer se brief aan die handelaarshoof (ek het vir proffesionele doeleindes name uitgeblank):

"QUOTE
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: pieterdt@nashuaisp.co.za
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 12:05 PM
Subject: FW: Letter to DP, Landrover

My letter to the DP at Landrover…

From:
Sent: 05 May 2011 12:34 AM
To:
Cc:
Subject: Letter to DP, Landrover

TO : – DP, LANDROVER

DATE : 5 MAY 2011

RE : 2006 DISCOVERY 3 TDV6 ES

After having purchased the above vehicle from Landrover in March 2010, the following problems were experienced:

MAY 2010:
Vehicle lost power and all the warning lights activated. Transfer case ECU failure was diagnosed. This resulted in the replacement of the ECU at a cost of
R 3500.00.

JUNE 2010:
Rear door actuator failure. Landrover quoted me +/- R 2000.00 for the repair which I didn’t accept. After some internet research I managed to do it myself.

AUGUST 2010:
Vehicle started shuddering when accelerating. The diagnosis was rear propshaft centre bush worn and the entire propshaft had to be replaced at a cost of
R 6300.00.

OCTOBER 2010:
Vehicle continued to shudder under acceleration after the propshaft replacement. Then the diagnosis was that the left and right front drive shafts “had an unacceptable level of play on them”. These parts were replaced at a cost of R 8000.00

NOVEMBER 2010:
Vehicle continued to shudder under acceleration even after the two front drive shafts were replaced. Landrover then indicated that this may be a gearbox problem but that it would be advisable to have a double gearbox oil flush done. Approximately R 6000.00 was quoted for a single flush. I took the vehicle to Sean Riley of Gearbox company in Midrand, who double flushed the gearbox at a cost of R 4000.00. He also reported that the oil in this vehicle’s gearbox had lost its viscous properties, was badly burnt and should have been replaced months before.

DECEMBER 2010:
The shudder continued after the gearbox flush and although it felt like there was a slight improvement at the time, it did not alleviate the shudder problem. Furthermore, the vehicle was scheduled for the 168 000 km service, which was booked for Thursday 16 December, as I was told that Landrover requires 2 days to complete this major service. On the 16th, I was told that the aircon needed to be regassed, which I authorised. On Friday 17 December I was told that the gas was not the problem, but that the compressor had actually failed. This had to be replaced at a cost of R 14 000.00. Further to this scenario and to add fuel to my incredible irritation with the general service levels at Landrover , it turns out that NOTHING was done to the vehicle on the 16th, and that they only started working on the car’s service during the afternoon of the 17th. When I arrived to collect my vehicle at 5pm, it was brought from the workshop and before I could even get into it, a cloud of white “smoke” emerged from underneath the bonnet, which turned out to be an O-ring on the aircon piping failing as they were driving it out! There was no spare available and no way of getting one, as it was after 5pm on a Friday evening. , the workshop manager, as well as , the senior technician, proceeded to acquire an O-ring from another vehicle to replace this broken one. Whilst this was happening, and because the aircon now had to be regassed again, the discussions turned to the shudder experienced on the vehicle and the suspected gearbox problem. then suggested that perhaps it would be a good idea to reset all the gearbox components of the vehicle’s computer, which he proceeded to do. All this was done prior to us going on an overlanding trip for our holiday.

DECEMBER 2010 (Our Holiday):
From the start, the vehicle had issues starting once switched off. This became increasingly worse until, Tuesday 28 December I could not start the vehicle at all. I started looking around in the engine bay to see if I could see any apparent or obvious problems as I was beyond irritated with this vehicle and its problems. Low and behold, I found that the air cleaner pipes had not been connected properly and had in fact pulled apart about 15 centimetres. Not only were they not connected, but there were NO SCREWS. . .!!!! Once I found screws and connected this lot together, the vehicle started FIRST TIME and every subsequent time without fail.
After our return in January 2011, I mentioned to Landrover (in a meeting I had with ) the issue with the air cleaner pipes, but never received any feedback, apology or comment on this.
For the duration of this holiday, from beginning to end, I had to drive my vehicle in manual mode, as it was “fishing for gears” when in automatic mode.

JANUARY 2011:
Upon returning from our holiday, I went to Landrover to request a meeting with the DP (it being you, ), to discuss the gearbox issues experienced during our December holiday, as well as the history of this vehicle. I spoke to the lady at reception and she indicated that you were not there, but that you’d be back at 12 noon. I went back at 12, only to find out that you were not returning that day. Long story short, after two appointments (booked in your diary), and you not being able to attend, I was seen by , the Used Car Sales Manager. During this discussion, he indicated that, as a course of action, I had to book the vehicle into the workshop. He will have a “donor” vehicle available in order to swop electronic components, to eliminate the possibility of the problem being one of those components. After that an inspection of the gearbox will have to be done but for that they have to remove and dismantle the gearbox and I would be liable for the cost of this. The only other alternative suggested by was to replace this vehicle for me.

The vehicle was subsequently booked to go in, and upon arriving to book the vehicle in, there was no job card ready, nor was the service advisor aware of this booking. A job card was then opened, but the list of things agreed to be done during this “inspection/evaluation”, made by during our meeting, was not available at the time and neither was . Nor was a completed job card with items checked ticked off, available at the time that I fetched the vehicle. At that time told me that it was definitely the gearbox and that they will book another appointment with a Motorite assessor. Imagine my surprise when it was now no longer necessary to take the gearbox out and dismantle it in order to see if anything was wrong!!!!!!! The booking was made, the assessor and I took the car for a drive and a gearbox replacement at R 44 000.00 was authorised by the Motorite assessor, however, only R 20 000.00 of this amount would be covered by Motorite. The balance of R 24 000.00 would be for my account.

The bottom line in my opinion is that I was sold a ‘dud’ and not a “Land Rover Approved Used Vehicle”. The reason I did not buy a Landrover from some arbitrary dealer in Gezina is that the Approved Used Landrover is supposed to be a “vehicle that has been thoroughly checked in our comprehensive multi-point inspection by a specialist Land Rover technician, and that upholds the quality that is synonymous with the Land Rover brand”, quoted from your Landrover website.

I therefore do not believe that the cost of the repair of the gearbox should be for my account, . I am of the opinion that the vehicle I purchased in March 2010 was never thoroughly checked, nor that, if it was, it would have passed any kind of scrutiny or level of quality. It is truly a very sad day for Landrover enthusiasts and loyalists like myself, if this is the quality of the so-called “approved used vehicle” that Landrover sells.


QUESTIONS:
My “thoroughly checked out” approved used Landrover displayed the following problems within the first few months of being bought:

Transfer case ECU - possibly understandable
A shudder on acceleration:
Rear Prop shaft - not acceptable if gone through check
Front Drive shafts -not acceptable if gone through check
Gearbox oil replacement - not acceptable if gone through check
Gearbox -would possibly not be a problem if above items were thoroughly checked?

Looking at the above, my opinion is that the problems I am experiencing with this vehicle are inherently all related and in this instance, to the drive train. And that these were problems in existence prior to me purchasing the vehicle.

A final comment on the Motorite warranty offered by Landrover to clients who buy vehicles no longer within a factory warranty/maintenance plan – they are the worst warranty underwriters I have ever come across. I am surprised that Landrover would sell this to a client and not be embarrassed afterwards. Every claim resulted in a Motorite rejection of the claim, and Landrover informing me that I have to pursue the matter with Motorite if I wanted to. In most instances I managed to at least secure some type of compensation from them. I am, however, amazed that I was asked to do this and I am extremely unimpressed that Landrover ever sold this policy to me, as their preferred warranty supplier.

I would appreciate a response to this email before the end of business on Friday 6 May, after which, should I not have received any, I will be taking the matter further.


Awaiting your response. UNQUOTE"

Now for the outcome of this "gemors"........