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The "Moose Test" - Will your rig pass it?

Re: The "Moose Test" - Will your rig pass it?

Postby iandvl » 28 Oct 2016 08:43

Thanks for the explanation Peter. Was just curious - I've always felt as safe as houses on dirt in the 'trol with my ABS and all. On the other hand, I don't do rally races on dirt. I generally drive a little slower... Still - this is something I shall definitely keep in mind.
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Re: The "Moose Test" - Will your rig pass it?

Postby David M » 28 Oct 2016 08:53

Exactly as Piet says. When there is no traction the ABS keeps trying to find it where it does not exist and you just carry on going. Downhill on wet hard clay can result in 100's of m with no brakes. However if you lock the wheels a wall builds up in front of the tyres slowing you. The more loose sand/dirt the better and as you get to harder surfaces it becomes more difficult but at least there is something as opposed to with ABS where putting your hand out the window would be more effective.

There is a good example of the slippery clay downhill in Midrand where Mane Rd enters the R562 as a T juction. I personally knew 9 clients that have died there and more than 20 people have died there. Most where towing horseboxes slowly approaching the junction, applied brakes and the ABS kicks in when it is wet. No brakes and enter the junction where the traffic across is doing 100 km/h. Yet there is enough loose stuff to stop you in time if you lock your wheels.

Had a classic a while ago when a client in an X5 was following me. I braked on a dry sand road for a corner without locking up. His ABS kicked in and he went straight and through a fence.
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Re: The "Moose Test" - Will your rig pass it?

Postby iandvl » 28 Oct 2016 08:57

David M wrote:Exactly as Piet says. When there is no traction the ABS keeps trying to find it where it does not exist and you just carry on going. Downhill on wet hard clay can result in 100's of m with no brakes. However if you lock the wheels a wall builds up in front of the tyres slowing you. The more loose sand/dirt the better and as you get to harder surfaces it becomes more difficult but at least there is something as opposed to with ABS where putting your hand out the window would be more effective.

There is a good example of the slippery clay downhill in Midrand where Mane Rd enters the R562 as a T juction. I personally knew 9 clients that have died there and more than 20 people have died there. Most where towing horseboxes slowly approaching the junction, applied brakes and the ABS kicks in when it is wet. No brakes and enter the junction where the traffic across is doing 100 km/h. Yet there is enough loose stuff to stop you in time if you lock your wheels.

Had a classic a while ago when a client in an X5 was following me. I braked on a dry sand road for a corner without locking up. His ABS kicked in and he went straight and through a fence.


Thanks again. That is something I've never considered, and it is a little scary...

Is there a way of putting a manual override in to disable the ABS ?

ie: Like a switch to disable the system in the same way it gets disabled when the diff-lock is on in 4L ?

I guess I'll be chatting to Graham some time...
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Re: The "Moose Test" - Will your rig pass it?

Postby David M » 28 Oct 2016 09:40

iandvl wrote:Thanks again. That is something I've never considered, and it is a little scary...

Is there a way of putting a manual override in to disable the ABS ?

ie: Like a switch to disable the system in the same way it gets disabled when the diff-lock is on in 4L ?

I guess I'll be chatting to Graham some time...


It should be able to be done by tapping into the electrical line that switches it off when you engage 4L.

BUT

I don't know about you but after years of driving my brain is hardwired to come off the brakes before changing direction and when I have needed to do it you do not have time to think about whether ABS is on or off so even when I needed to take avoiding action in the Jimny with ABS the other day I still came off the brakes when I did not need to.

In other words I believe ABS and traction control is of no use to me and can in fact cause an accident. The other day I was driving an XKR Jag around Midvaal Raceway and started to lose the back end at 200 km/h. I came off the power slightly and at the same time the traction control decided to start braking wheels and doing all it's weird and wonderful things which resulted in both me and the traction control running out of talent. Thank goodness for the run off area. Now I only have so much talent but my mate who races V8's has a lot of talent and the same happened to him.

Now to make the above more interesting we where both driving with the traction control off but in modern cars off is not off. The manufacturers have decided that the computer has more talent than the driver and at a certain point it kicks in anyway.

I believe the decision to be made is whether you believe you or the electronics/ABS is better and then stick with one mode.
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Re: The "Moose Test" - Will your rig pass it?

Postby Wilkie » 28 Oct 2016 10:15

ABS is n lot of wogg on dirt road .... no argument
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Re: The "Moose Test" - Will your rig pass it?

Postby SJC » 28 Oct 2016 11:03

Is there not a fuse that can be removed to disable the ABS?
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Re: The "Moose Test" - Will your rig pass it?

Postby SJC » 28 Oct 2016 11:07

Tinus lotz wrote:Me thinks a new unlifted patrol will be fine ....us with lift kits roofracks ect ...no anti sway bars....we need to put more lights to see them first.... :rolling:


Would like to see how a lifted, no sway bars ect Patrol does on this test compared to a standard Patrol. would be interesting...

But if you look at he pic of the Hilux, I recon a Patrol would still have all four wheels on the ground.... :lol:
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Re: The "Moose Test" - Will your rig pass it?

Postby ricster » 28 Oct 2016 11:19

Going slightly back on topic, the moose test is more about swerving to avoid the "moose" (kudu). ABS or no ABS, on sand or on tar, there is a point in which the car will dig one of its front wheels in to the surface with enough traction and with the forward momentum of the vehicle, flip it over. The higher the vehicle, to more likely the car will flip over. The narrower the wheel base in relation to the vehicle the easier it will flip over. That's why formula one cars can swerve and corner at 150Km/h, where as our Patrols for example could probably do the same corner at 50km/h before flipping over.

Center of gravity is the key point, as well as tyre wall height. The amount of flex in our 31" or even 33" tyres (75 profile ) is massive compared to the BMW I had with 45 profile tyres. If you watch all the youtube videos carefully, watch the deformation of the front tyres. The one front tyre will be absorbing tremendous pressures where as the opposite, or for that matter both rear wheels will have either minimal pressure or be completely up in the air.

In a situation like this where you land up with a surprise obstacle in front of you, how you will react is an almost impossible question to answer, unless you are a professional racing or rally driver. One cannot say, and I believe Peter will agree with me, that when you are racing on a track or rally stage, you are so focused on driving that you will probably react completely different than how you would while driving in a relaxed manner listening to some cool music and listening to swambo moaning at you cause you forgot to pack her hairdryer. In this situation, you will first need to come out of relax mode, process what the hell is happening, decide on what course of action to take, and then execute the decision. All this takes a few milliseconds, but by then your survival instincts kick in and you swerve to avoid the obstacle, and the inevitable happens unless you manage to keep control of the vehicle.

Remember that it is not the initial swerve that is the problem, but the correction of the swerve. It is EXTREMELY easy to over correct the initial swerve ( slide ), and then one needs to correct the over correction. Again an over correction of the over correction just flicks the center of gravity all over the place. One has to keep extremely cool in a situation like this. After the initial swerve, one almost starts gingerly correcting immediately thereafter and preparing to gingerly correct again if your initial correction was overdone. Hopefully the driver has the quick reaction times to execute this, alternatively a little luck on your side would also be a great help.

Sorry to sound morbid here, but it is a reality we need to be aware of this.... especially with our vehicles. That's why for example driving in Botswana at night is not advisable... driving from Jhb to Mozambique ( I'm talking about the areas like the outskirts of Pongola and Jozini ) at night is not advisable. If you have to, be aware of your surroundings. Reduce your speed !! Look for eye reflections from the animals on the sides of the roads and even in the roads. An animal will more often than not freeze when a bright light is shone at it. I say this because you may swerve one way thinking the animal is going to continue moving in the opposite direction, but as the light hits it it freezes and looks straight at you all the way till impact.

Be safe out there !!!
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Re: The "Moose Test" - Will your rig pass it?

Postby ricster » 28 Oct 2016 11:23

"But if you look at he pic of the Hilux, I recon a Patrol would still have all four wheels on the ground.... :lol:"

Highly unlikely bud.... without sway bars it will be even worse !!!!..... like in EPIC FAIL !! Sway bars are there for just that reason to try keep the vehicle level. If one wheel is up and the other one down, the up is going to push down and the down one will be pushing up trying to get the balance.
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Re: The "Moose Test" - Will your rig pass it?

Postby David M » 28 Oct 2016 13:12

ricster wrote:Sorry to sound morbid here, but it is a reality we need to be aware of this.... especially with our vehicles. That's why for example driving in Botswana at night is not advisable... driving from Jhb to Mozambique ( I'm talking about the areas like the outskirts of Pongola and Jozini ) at night is not advisable. If you have to, be aware of your surroundings. Reduce your speed !! Look for eye reflections from the animals on the sides of the roads and even in the roads. An animal will more often than not freeze when a bright light is shone at it. I say this because you may swerve one way thinking the animal is going to continue moving in the opposite direction, but as the light hits it it freezes and looks straight at you all the way till impact.

Be safe out there !!!


Remember that most domestic animals have no eye shine and an animal with its bum to you or sleeping on the warm tar also has none..

I have driven that road often and try and time it that I hit the Jozini dam wall as it gets light as I will not drive further until it is light.

The biggest problem I have had there is donkeys sleeping in the middle of the road on the top of Jozini Pass but you are going slowly there anyway.
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