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Getting into gear - a riddle for drive train specialists

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Getting into gear - a riddle for drive train specialists

Postby Alex Roux » 15 Nov 2016 08:37

Hi all

As some of you may know, I have a problem and I need help.
I do not expect anyone to make a conclusive diagnoses on a forum.
That is not realistic. But some of you may have some ideas of what to look for further.

I cannot get the car into gear. The engine works fine. Put it into first. Release the clutch. Nothing happens. Car remains static, as if I was in neutral. This is the case with all gear combinations, 1-5 and R, and irrespective of where the short stick is at that time.

This what happened:
We did some extreme stuff and the car was under strain. No doubting that. But I had no issues until after we descended from the last koppie. Then the guide decided we need some fun with mud holes and took us on a detour back to camp. Some of those holes were deep (I really need to sort out that timing sensor on my crankshaft pulley). So as expected, at some point, my engine started to stutter and stalled. Alex Botha did not need an invitation to go into reverse to fetch me with his recovery strap. I happily obliged.
The engine was off, but the ignition turned half way.

The subsequent mud holes were even deeper.
Safely got back to camp and waited for the engine to dry out.

After trying to start the engine for a while, the batteries started to get lazy.
So we decided perhaps we should pull the car with another to get the car started (since 3 tonnes is no fun to push), by droping the clutch in second gear.
This is when I realized I have no gears. Dropping the clutch did nothing.

At no point did I hear any funny noises from under neath. No friction or sudden resistance of any kind.
not now, nor at any point in the run-up to losing my gears. And no funny noises now either.
It is as if the short stick is put into Neutral. It does no matter what you do with the long stick. The car remains out of gear.
Except this is the same symptom, whether the short stick is in 2H, 4H or 4L, or N for that matter.

If it was the clutch that went, then it more than likely would have been stuck in one particular gear, rather than neutral, and would more than likely have given up some sound of sorts prior to giving up the ghost.
The other logical explanation is that the transfer case selection linkage (which apparently sits outside the gearbox) is out.
But apparently Graham has checked this and it is not the issue.

What can this be?
Witblits
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Re: Getting into gear - a riddle for drive train specialists

Postby ricster » 15 Nov 2016 09:29

This has me baffled !!!

1 - cannot be stripped side shafts, cause at least front or rear wheel would spin ( assuming the t-case was still in 4H or 4L )
2 - cannot be diffs, unless you are the most unlucky guy in the word to strip both front and rear diff at the same time. ( I suppose not impossible but highly unlikely )
3 - Transfer case.... hmmmmm, here is where I think the problem lies in my opinion. firstly you have no gears, both forward and backwards, and no selection of 2H, 4H or 4L. I cannot believe that the gears are stripped, so my next train of thought would be the chain inside the t-case. with the chain out of action there can be no transfer to the propshafts.
4 - Gearbox, I cannot see a gearbox loosing all gears. I would also think that there would be one loud heavy metal party going on in the gearbox if the g-box did loose all gears.
5 - Clutch - I would think that there would be a little friction, even if its a tone/pitch change in the motor as the clutch catches and releases, similar to putting an auto car into drive and back into neutral and back into drive. I stand corrected, but doesn't a clutch when failing land up in the "engaged" position. so there should be some frictional contact between the plates.
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Re: Getting into gear - a riddle for drive train specialists

Postby AndriesS » 15 Nov 2016 09:44

But lets' take the clutch out of play, with clutch out can you and car at idle, can you move it into 1st or R without crunch (should not be able to move into gear at all), if yes- then some spectacular clutch mishap.
If no, then we know the clutch is still there and the need to look at transfer and then I'm with ricster's no 3 on this.

However , does the 4x4 light go on when you shift it in 4H and 4L? Is your short stick still working, maybe it's not connected anymore? maybe it's stuck in N and all the shifting is not doing anything.

Pity I don;t have my manual here, at least be able to see how the shifters connect)
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Re: Getting into gear - a riddle for drive train specialists

Postby Tinus lotz » 15 Nov 2016 09:50

Iam putting my money on transfer box stuck in neutral. ...al fine and then no gears after a small tow?
Clutch will make a noise .....short stick lost a link somewhere :mytwocents:
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Re: Getting into gear - a riddle for drive train specialists

Postby Peter Connan » 15 Nov 2016 10:03

I agree with Andries's test. However i don't agree that it can be the transfer case chain. If it were a Landy or Cruiser, then it could be the chain in the transfer case.

But on the Patrol, the chain only drives the front wheels, the rear is directly gear-driven.

I would start by listening with a stethoscope or long screwdriver. If the end is held against the gearbox and with the engine running the clutch is stroked, there should be a change in sound. Also different gears should make different sounds. Remember that even with the box in neutral, most of the gearbox internals should still be rotating with the clutch released, and coasting to a stop when it is pressed.

If fhere is no sound from the gearbox, then it pretty much has to be tbe clutch. If the noise from the gearbox is the same irrespective of the gear selected, but there is some sound, then it must be the main gearbox selector mechanism.

If fhe gearbox sound changes when different gears are selected, then the transfer case becomes the prime suspect.
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Re: Getting into gear - a riddle for drive train specialists

Postby DawidT » 15 Nov 2016 10:17

I had a similar experience on my GQ and another car. The GQ started slipping the clutch on my way back from Bots. on a long uphill the clutch just went, no bang or any noise, I could idle the car and move it into any gear without using the clutch, nor did it make any "friction" type noises - the rivets on the clutch worn through and the remaining little bit of lining just dropped out leaving me without a clutch at all, clutch spinning freely between the pressure plate and flywheel. The second incident was a clutch plate that broke, the centre portion broke loose from the "rim" with the lining on and was spinning freely without making a big noise we took the clutch plate out and on close inspection we saw the failure - there however was a "friction" type noise but same symptoms, you could select the gears whilst idling and not using the clutch at all. :mytwocents:
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Re: Getting into gear - a riddle for drive train specialists

Postby ricster » 15 Nov 2016 10:32

See.... Even I am learning new things.... I didn't know the chain only delivers power to the front wheels.
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Re: Getting into gear - a riddle for drive train specialists

Postby Alex Roux » 15 Nov 2016 11:07

DawidT wrote:I had a similar experience on my GQ and another car. The GQ started slipping the clutch on my way back from Bots. on a long uphill the clutch just went, no bang or any noise, I could idle the car and move it into any gear without using the clutch, nor did it make any "friction" type noises - the rivets on the clutch worn through and the remaining little bit of lining just dropped out leaving me without a clutch at all, clutch spinning freely between the pressure plate and flywheel.


Dawid
Just checking, you had no prior warning that the clutch was on its way out, other than the slipping?
How much slipping did you experience before it completely stopped working.

I just shudder to think where else on this trail it could have happened - would not have been pretty.
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Re: Getting into gear - a riddle for drive train specialists

Postby Tinus lotz » 15 Nov 2016 11:20

You had to burn that clutch big time ....if it was that you did superman 2 hours before that if that clutch was klaar it would have dropped you threre
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Re: Getting into gear - a riddle for drive train specialists

Postby Michael » 15 Nov 2016 11:48

I will go with Andries on this one and say its most likely the clutch that had a massive failure.

I have never seen it before, but it is possable to strip the gearbox input shaft or the clutch plate spliance which would have that same effect
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