4.8L Performance upgrade options

Engines and Engine Systems
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Alex Roux
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Re: 4.8L Performance upgrade options

Post by Alex Roux » 18 Jul 2018 08:35

What wheel?
Flywheel or Rubber?
Skilpad & Shortie

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Re: 4.8L Performance upgrade options

Post by CarloG » 18 Jul 2018 08:39

Alex Roux wrote:
18 Jul 2018 08:35
What wheel?
Flywheel or Rubber?
The two big rubber ones at the back
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Re: 4.8L Performance upgrade options

Post by Mystical_Beast » 18 Jul 2018 09:21

Guys just for clarification

There isn’t a dyno in the world that measure the torque of your car.
To measure the torque of you motor would require removing it and placing it on a stationary set.

The torque figure provided off a dyno is a calculation, be that on the flywheel or be that on the wheels.

It is derived from the kw figures and a whole host of other parameters that I don’t have the time to go into now.

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Re: 4.8L Performance upgrade options

Post by CarloG » 18 Jul 2018 09:53

Mystical_Beast wrote:
18 Jul 2018 09:21
Guys just for clarification

that I don’t have the time to go into now.
Come on Julian - cant throw that out there and not have time? :naughty: :wink:

Can we assume however that for relatively comparative purposes to asses the changes in setup (supercharger/exhaust etc) that the difference in nm (calculated in whatever manner - as long as the inputs are the same) is enough for the purposes of caparison?
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Alex Roux
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Re: 4.8L Performance upgrade options

Post by Alex Roux » 19 Jul 2018 08:16

CarloG wrote:
18 Jul 2018 09:53
Mystical_Beast wrote:
18 Jul 2018 09:21
Guys just for clarification

that I don’t have the time to go into now.
Come on Julian - cant throw that out there and not have time? :naughty: :wink:

Can we assume however that for relatively comparative purposes to asses the changes in setup (supercharger/exhaust etc) that the difference in nm (calculated in whatever manner - as long as the inputs are the same) is enough for the purposes of caparison?
The issue for me is that one car cannot always be compared to another. For starters some people drive 31" and others 33" tyres etc. Then there is weight that affects effective power in any event.
But as long as everything stays the same before and after the blower is installed, then a before/after test result should still be useful, including of course how it is calculated.
Skilpad & Shortie

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Re: 4.8L Performance upgrade options

Post by Mystical_Beast » 19 Jul 2018 08:49

When a vehicle is set up on the dyno to do your first base run..
In simplistic terms the following should happen.
First ascertain wheels are standard etc.

Same vehicle on same dyno with different wheel sizes will give different result
The Dyno measures the power KW, but within the software there is a conversion to NM, torque.

So what happens is something like this

You do your first run and as long as the car is producing the correct power for that particular model you then have a look at the torque curve.
Then you refer to manufacturer specification which will tell you what the car produces standard and what RPM.
The Torque curve is then manipulated with a correction factor so that it coincides with factory spec.
So the graph resembles factory spec

Assuming the car is within spec insofar as producing the correct power, the torque curve will then be an accurate representation of what your motor produces at the flywheel.
Any reading of torque at the wheels is that particular tuners own calculation and therefor can essentially be whatever he wants it to be.

So to go back now..

Assuming the core is producing within spec
The dyno software spits out a torque curve.
The Tuner should refer to factory spec and do the calculation factor that mirrors factory figure.
That calculation figure is then unique to that particular vehicle and should be used on all subsequent runs.
If you change tyre size that calculation would have to be redone.
So every single different vehicle type will have its own calculation factor determined from a good one done previously, a database of sorts.

So your Patrol then could possibly be based on the calculation of previous Patrols.
Depending on how accurately that original conversion factor was done would then determine the accuracy of your results.
As a before and after sure, the changes will be evident.
If the conversion factor is manipulated the results will be skewered.

Not sure if I managed to explain this properly.

In conclusion, all things being equal, the torque figure should be showed at the flywheel, rather than at the wheels, because the dyno does not measure torque at all.
And the torque of the motor is derived from the above conversion calculation as mentioned above.

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Re: 4.8L Performance upgrade options

Post by CarloG » 19 Jul 2018 12:01

Julian - Thanks for taking the time - I will leave this thread more educated that when I started it. I have no idea if what you've described is correct or not, but i'll assume it is for the purposes of some questions for clarity and my own education.
Mystical_Beast wrote:
19 Jul 2018 08:49
When a vehicle is set up on the dyno to do your first base run..
In simplistic terms the following should happen.
First ascertain wheels are standard etc.

Same vehicle on same dyno with different wheel sizes will give different result
The Dyno measures the power KW, but within the software there is a conversion to NM, torque.

So what happens is something like this

You do your first run and as long as the car is producing the correct power for that particular model you then have a look at the torque curve.
Then you refer to manufacturer specification which will tell you what the car produces standard and what RPM.
The Torque curve is then manipulated with a correction factor so that it coincides with factory spec.
So the graph resembles factory spec
is this done 'automatically' by the software and, more to the point, why does it need to be matched to the factory curve?

Assuming the car is within spec insofar as producing the correct power, the torque curve will then be an accurate representation of what your motor produces at the flywheel.
1. What happens if the power curve is different to that of the factory at a baseline - i.e. no mods. What torque curve do you match it to
2. What needs to happen if the baseline test is not factory spec - most common would probably be larger wheel. 33" in my case vs 31" OEM.
3. Why conversion to flywheel - Is this because the factory spec is done at the flywheel?
Any reading of torque at the wheels is that particular tuners own calculation and therefor can essentially be whatever he wants it to be.
From my observation at SAC Centurion they printed a print-out for me there and then. I didnt see any input other that finding a clicking on the print button. Could there be a std calc to take into account losses from flywheel to rear wheels (i suppose they would need to be by vehicle model.

So to go back now..

Assuming the core is producing within spec
The dyno software spits out a torque curve.
The Tuner should refer to factory spec and do the calculation factor that mirrors factory figure.
That calculation figure is then unique to that particular vehicle and should be used on all subsequent runs.
Does this normally get disclosed to the customer

If you change tyre size that calculation would have to be redone.
So every single different vehicle type will have its own calculation factor determined from a good one done previously, a database of sorts.

So your Patrol then could possibly be based on the calculation of previous Patrols. Which could all have different tyres, already have exhausts, manifolds or filters, snorkels etc? - this would statistically results in an average somewhere between OEM and the most common mods
Depending on how accurately that original conversion factor was done would then determine the accuracy of your results.
As a before and after sure, the changes will be evident.
If the conversion factor is manipulated the results will be skewered.

Not sure if I managed to explain this properly.

In conclusion, all things being equal, the torque figure should be showed at the flywheel, rather than at the wheels, because the dyno does not measure torque at all.
So how do we know if the figure is done at the wheel or at the flywheel ... (or i suppose somewhere in between!)
And the torque of the motor is derived from the above conversion calculation as mentioned above.
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Re: 4.8L Performance upgrade options

Post by Mystical_Beast » 19 Jul 2018 13:16

The Dyno only measures torque
Within the software there is the ability to calculate the torque based on KW reading.
So obviously you have losses between the motor and the wheels on the dyno which effect the reading.
Hence the calculation factor to compensate for those losses. Using the factory specs as a reference base.
So although you are measuring the KW on the wheels, by calculating the correction factor you are able to get a reasonably accurate representation of the torque of the motor from the dyno and then the torque curve as such.

If your baseline is way off then you need to find out why

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Re: 4.8L Performance upgrade options

Post by Mystical_Beast » 19 Jul 2018 17:56

Would like to upload a vid of my Patrol on the dyno.

MP4 type file..

How does one do that?

Says invalid file extention??

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Re: 4.8L Performance upgrade options

Post by Mystical_Beast » 19 Jul 2018 18:31

Hope I am not taking away from Carlo's thread

Attached see ling of my Patrol dyno tuned today.

First run after fitment at RGM Motorsport

Tomorrow will be a couple of hours of Road Testing and applying settings "on the road'' where you car is set up "tuned' in real world driving conditions

And then finally back onto the Dyno for final checking that you havent ''lost'' anything or to carry out improvements in a more controlled environment.

I'm showing 249 kw on the wheels, you will see it in the video linked below.

I'll post graphs when I get them but still a week or two away as I'm doing all diff oils, trf case etc. etc and changing engine oil to Liqui Moly 5w40 after everything has been done.

Didn't want to run new spec oil in the engine and have it screaming on the Dyno for the first.
So at the moment ordinary 15w40 in there.

In 10 000 km time I'll be making even more power.

Also plut in an EGT Guage and oil temp Guage to monitor everything, went analogue as personally I hate the look of the madman.

Would have been better if fitted slightly higher but the radius and meat behind the hinge was a bit in the way.

Still.. I will live with it for a while and see..

https://youtu.be/gTZVTShEMX8


https://youtu.be/yxvKgg2EB-s
IMG-20180716-WA0000.jpg

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