Opinion of what she is worth

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Mystical_Beast
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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by Mystical_Beast » 12 Sep 2017 13:27

Peter you raise valid points and I have taken those precise concerns up with RG Motorsport themselves.
Especially regarding the advent of dodgy fuel inadvertently being supplied.
It’s a simple matter of switching, the Uni-chip allows for 5 different maps, so they would provide a switch which essentially sends the car onto a lower base map, basically retarding timing and fuel.
Naturally if you experience pinging or knocking you will not continue driving flat out until you have assessed the cause. Likewise if you notice the engine temperature increasing on a standard vehicle, you will assess, slow down etc.

They have capacity to programme the chip for this eventuality.
A different map that you could switch too.
The turbo route, in my opinion is taken from a cost perspective rather than it being better.
While its widely held/acknowledged that Turbos are more efficient, it essentially all depends on setup, size of turbo, fuel pressue etc. but that on the whole Super Chargers are generally conceded to offer more reliability.

I doubt an after market turbo comes with the same technological expertise as what is fitted to modern vehicles, insofar as ECU calibration, fuelling, air and matching of injector patterns etc.
But don’t know enough about it to comment knowledgably.

Fitment of modern OEM turbos to my understanding are twin and even three turbos, much smaller in size, specifically to prevent lag and provide tractability as apposed to a larger single bolt on type.
Superchargers offer linear power delivery across the rev range, constant boost.
Any forced induction will raise heat.

Having said that, the new OEM turbos, especially the ones in V8 Merc and BMW have not been without their problems, and then those where they are fitted between engine banks are also known to experience problems.
While it might be HPFP or waste-gate failures, Turbo systems are not without their own set of problems.
Mercedes previously went the Super-charged route prior and had very little problems in that regard.

I don’t think anyone can argue that with a standard set up there is less to go wrong, but then no risk no reward.
In my opinion, any system pushed to its limits will compromise reliability.

Bmw, which faced a class action lawsuit in 2010 over its N54 engine used in 2007-2012 1 Series, 3 Series, 5 Series, X6, and Z4 models. Allegedly, the high-pressure fuel pump has a very high failure rate and some owners say that a defect in turbocharger’s design requires a tweak so they don’t run at full capacity.

https://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/1 ... e/?mcubz=3

Point being that ultimate performance vs rand spent isn’t necessarily the way to go when wanting to keep reliability.

Super charges work off very much lower boost pressures, in the Patrol conversion I believe it to be as low as 0.3 bar.
In speaking to RG Motorsport they had a clients Patrol in there which was Turbo charged.
It’s a mess they tell me.
You need to change internals to lower compression values if you go the Turbo route.

According to those in the know.

They do offer a 20 000 km warranty so I believe they have reasonable confidence in the work they do.

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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by Mystical_Beast » 12 Sep 2017 13:41

In doing some research on Supercharger vs Turbo I came across this which enforces my gut feel to go the Supercharger route.

Now it's time to evaluate the turbocharger versus the supercharger according to several important factors.

Cost
The cost of supercharger and a turbocharger systems for the same engine are approximately the same, so cost is generally not a factor.

Lag
This is perhaps the biggest advantage that the supercharger enjoys over the turbo. Because a turbocharger is driven by exhaust gasses, the turbocharger's turbine must first spool up before it even begins to turn the compressor's impeller. This results in lag time which is the time needed for the turbine to reach its full throttle from an intermediate rotational speed state. During this lag time, the turbocharger is creating little to no boost, which means little to no power gains during this time. Smaller turbos spool up quicker, which eliminates some of this lag. Turbochargers thus utilize a wastegate, which allows the use of a smaller turbocharger to reduce lag while preventing it from spinning too quickly at high engine speeds. The wastegate is a valve that allows the exhaust to bypass the turbine blades. The wastegate senses boost pressure, and if it gets too high, it could be an indicator that the turbine is spinning too quickly, so the wastegate bypasses some of the exhaust around the turbine blades, allowing the blades to slow down..
A Supercharger, on the other hand, is connected directly to the crank, so there is no "lag". Superchargers are able to produce boost at a very low rpm, especially screw-type and roots type blowers.

Efficiency
This is the turbo's biggest advantage. The turbocharger is generally more economical to operate as it as it is driven primarily by potential energy in the exhaust gasses that would otherwise be lost out the exhaust, whereas a supercharger draws power from the crank, which can be used to turn the wheels. The turbocharger's impeller is also powered only under boost conditions, so there is less parasitic drag while the impeller is not spinning. The turbocharger, however, is not free of inefficiency as it does create additional exhaust backpressure and exhaust flow interruption.

Heat
Because the turbocharger is mounted to the exhaust manifold (which is very hot), turbocharger boost is subject to additional heating via the turbo's hot casing. Because hot air expands (the opposite goal of a turbo or supercharger), an intercooler becomes necessary on almost all turbocharged applications to cool the air charge before it is released into the engine. This increases the complexity of the installation. A centrifugal supercharger on the other hand creates a cooler air discharge, so an intercooler is often not necessary at boost levels below 10psi. That said, some superchargers (especially roots-type superchargers) create hotter discharge temperatures, which also make an intecooler necessary even on fairly low-boost applications.

Surge
Because a turbocharger first spools up before the boost is delivered to the engine, there is a surge of power that is delivered immediately when the wastegate opens (around 3000 rpm). This surge can be damaging to the engine and drivetrain, and can make the vehicle difficult to drive or lose traction.

Back Pressure
Because the supercharger eliminates the need to deal with the exhaust gas interruption created by inserting a turbocharger turbine into the exhaust flow, the supercharger creates no additional exhaust backpressure. The amount of power that is lost by a turbo's turbine reduces it's overall efficiency.

Noise
The turbocharger is generally quieter than the supercharger. Because the turbo's turbine is in the exhaust, the turbo can substantially reduce exhaust noise, making the engine run quieter. Some centrifugal superchargers are known to be noisy and whistley which, annoys some drivers (we, however, love it!)

Reliability
In general, superchargers enjoy a substantial reliability advantage over the turbocharger. When a a turbo is shut off (i.e. when the engine is turned off), residual oil inside the turbo's bearings can be baked by stored engine heat. This, combined with the turbo's extremely high rpms (up to 150,000rpm) can cause problems with the turbo's internal bearings and can shorten the life of the turbocharger. In addition, many turbos require aftermarket exhaust manifolds, which are often far less reliable than stock manifolds.

Ease of Installation
Superchargers are substantially easier to install than a turbos because they have far fewer components and simpler devices. Turbos are complex and require manifold and exhaust modifications, intercoolers, extra oil lines, etc. - most of which is not needed with most superchargers. A novice home mechanic can easily install most supercharger systems, while a turbo installation should be left to a turbo expert.

Maximum Power Output
Turbos are known for their unique ability to spin to incredibly high rpms and make outrages peak boost figures (25psi+). While operating a turbocharger at very high levels of boost requires major modifications to the rest of the engine, the turbo is capable of producing more peak power than superchargers.

Tunability
Turbochargers, because they are so complex and rely on exhaust pressure, are notoriously difficult to tune. Superchargers, on the other hand, require few fuel and ignition upgrades and normally require little or no engine tuning.

Conclusion

While the supercharger is generally considered to be a better method of forced induction for most street and race vehicles, the turbo will always have its place in a more specialized market. Superchargers generally provide a much broader powerband that most drivers are looking for with no "turbo lag". In addition, they are much easier to install and tune, making them more practical for a home or novice mechanic.

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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by graham1 » 12 Sep 2017 18:24

Who has the supercharged patrol on here again?
We need him to pop in here and convince you this is a good idea properly now.

Getting back to selling it (although it seems this idea's ship has already sailed which is good), my brief experience is that these 4.8s, actually all patrols, have terrible resale value, so, even though you have low mileage, you might still struggle to get close to R300k, and therefore not actually worth selling it. :mytwocents:

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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by Tinus lotz » 12 Sep 2017 19:42


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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by SJC » 12 Sep 2017 20:42

Tinus lotz wrote:Td48 turbo
https://youtu.be/_LGSpeow09c :blonde: :blonde:
TB48... WWW

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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by hugejp » 12 Sep 2017 20:54

:rolling:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You CAN with a NISSAN!

Jy KAN met 'n DATSUN!

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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by Mystical_Beast » 12 Sep 2017 21:17

Tinus lotz wrote:Td48 turbo
https://youtu.be/_LGSpeow09c :blonde: :blonde:

I coincidentally watched that same clip last night, in pursuit of motivation to keep the Patrol.
I guess the urge to sell has flown.

I'm excited to have the conversion done now, just waiting to see if I pricing will break my arm.

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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by Mystical_Beast » 12 Sep 2017 21:27

graham1 wrote:Who has the supercharged patrol on here again?
We need him to pop in here and convince you this is a good idea properly now.

Getting back to selling it (although it seems this idea's ship has already sailed which is good), my brief experience is that these 4.8s, actually all patrols, have terrible resale value, so, even though you have low mileage, you might still struggle to get close to R300k, and therefore not actually worth selling it. :mytwocents:
I agree with you Graham, left a note for you on your trip report.
Its actually crazy what Patrols are valued at in the re-sell market but were it not for that I guess many of us wouldn't have Patrols.
Besides the fuel consumption which can be a drag, I have bmw diesel turbos for comparison, these are seriously undervalued vehicles.

It makes no sense that a Toyota Landcruiser asks for so much more and the Patrol in comparison so little.
Like I said in my original post I wasn't planning to give it away and in my targeted asking price I didn't even factor in the 50 k it cost to change the colour.

I suspect though in years to come current Y61 may become sought after over-landing vehicles and perhaps pricing will align more closely with actual worth.
Should the conversion happen will post some details thereof, perhaps a video of the dyno run.

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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by Tinus lotz » 12 Sep 2017 21:35

Dude ....what i understand from Faan is that it cost around 150k for a new supercharger. ...Faan and biggles both run them on their trollies ...what i understood from Frans is that you get same or more useable power from a turbo and its half the price .... :mytwocents:

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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by Mystical_Beast » 12 Sep 2017 22:15

That maybe so, although I am looking (negotiating) around the 100 k mark for the Super Charged conversion.
I have spent a lot of money with RG Motorsport, possibly close to a million rand over the last 20 years.

Be that as it may, Frans as I understand is in the Cape so logistically would be difficult, especially if there are teething problems.
Who do you take it to for repair if such is required and the work was done thousands of km’s away?

Do the guys who are doing the Turbo conversion, in this case Frans have the back-up to replace the engine at their cost if something goes wrong?
What unconditional guarantee would be in place if any?

To me these are all unknown and more importantly I don’t want a Turbo conversion, I want a Super-charged one if I am doing any conversion at all.

While I understand that outright performance on a Turbo job may be more, I’m not looking for crazy performance upgrade on this particular car, rather something I can put a great big heavy off-road trailer behind and cruise effortlessly at the speeds I am comfortable to drive, without having to be confined to a particular power-band.
To do the Turbo conversion successfully requires lowering the compression ratio of the motor, internals, forged pistons, high comp rings, to truly use what a turbo can give. This would probably cost more.

As mentioned earlier, there is a Turbo job with RGM right now, to be fixed, it failed.
I don't know the history but the above was the professional advise given today.
These guys super charge cars costing millions of rand, straight off the showroom floor.
Its crazy the money some people have to spend.

For example on the V8 M3 just the carbon fibre bonnet, part of a specific conversion will cost you R 160000.00.
Total conversion close to R 500,000.00, its a different league altogether.
If you go there, you cant move for the cars, they are doing something right.

And in the very unlikely event, should something go wrong I have enough of a relationship with the supplier who will at the very least fly out to wherever I am, to get me back on the road, or at the very least send a tow-truck and alternative vehicle or as the situation demands.
A customer/supplier relationship that one can have peace of mind on, is more important to me personally than the biggest bang for my buck.
Further, workmanship, research, testing, the R&D are known, they export kits to Dubai for the Patrols.

This doesn’t necessarily take anything away from the guys who have chosen to go the Turbo route, not whoever does the installation, just I have no relationship with them and if and when things do go wrong, as they well can, price paid is less important than the relationship you can rely on to make good as such.
That’s my personal view and I guess each to their own.

And then their is their guarantee for 20 000 km, which is pretty fair to provide on a 9 year old car, and no nonsense later of apportioning blame.
If they are able to accommodate me somewhat on price, the deal will be done.

If not, I will leave her just as she is but Im sure the deal will be done.

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