Opinion of what she is worth

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Mystical_Beast
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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by Mystical_Beast » 15 Dec 2017 11:47

Before the conversion and even now

Cruising speed seems best at 3000 rpm in 5th

I am speaking with a pretty standard set up, anything less than 2500 rpm feels laboured to me.

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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by Clem » 15 Dec 2017 12:56

David M wrote:
14 Dec 2017 18:47
Clem wrote:
14 Dec 2017 17:08
biggles wrote:
14 Dec 2017 11:44
I have the cleaning kit for the filter and cone filters if properly cared for are as good as if not better than paper filters.
I can only say that I speak from experience. It turned one engine into a low compression version for me. Never again. Period.
I agree 100% from experience. The filter on the RGM conversion on The Firetruck has and is about to cost me in excess of R 50 k after it worked loose and sent gravel through the turbo, intercooler and motor....
Eina! Jammer swaer... :-(

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David M
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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by David M » 15 Dec 2017 15:40

Mystical_Beast wrote:
14 Dec 2017 19:00
David, if I may ask

Did you have the conversion done, or did you buy the vehicle with their conversion?f
I think one needs to be reasonable and not ascribe to malice that which is neglect.

If I fail to notice my radiator leaking water and lose the engine as a result, would it be rational to blame the service center I last used?

And then, my next question would be, who did the maintenance and services on the vehicle subsequent to the conversion?

If it was RGM I believe you have a valid gripe, if not I dont believe you can justifiably ascribe to them, something they haven't seen for years.

I own a few vehicles and they service and maintain most of them.

In my experience they are completely thorough.

And I believe, without the relevant facts at my disposal, that had they serviced your vehicle, this issue would have been picked up way before any damage occurred.

That they did a conversion, that someone else has seen fit to maintain, that is your port of call, Not RGM.
Not sure why you jumped to the conclusion I blame RGM and came to their defence in detail. I however stand by my statement that in my opinion their filter design is not ideal for serious offroad use. No different to having the opinion that the best All Terrain tyres are Mud Terrain tyres.

I bought it with the conversion on and am sure that other people fiddled with it after and could list 20 things that where a disaster but which I have no clue if they where done by RGM or not. Hence they have never been contacted, blamed or the disasters of which there are many listed on this forum or any other.

What I am saying is that my opinion is that their filter design is not suitable for serious offroad use and maintenance by mechanics away from major centres (Your vehicles are maintained here. This one was maintained in Mpumalanga) and therefore my opinion is the same as Clem's that I will never go near one of these filters on an offroad vehicle again.

I have a BMC in the Golf and take the assossciated risks.

I think you are going to find people are not scared of voicing their opinions on this forum. If you are of the opinion that the gentlemen at RGM "walk on water" that is fine and your entitlement. I think you may find others differ and that is their entitlement.
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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by Mystical_Beast » 15 Dec 2017 16:54

I am in no way defending RGM.
In fact I was merely providing an objective view.
Your post, to any reasonable person.. ascribes the failure to them having fitted a component to your vehicle and further that that component is not up to its function.
Whereas incorrect application, ignorance and negligence is what is at play, more than anything else.
Subsequently someone else has worked on that vehicle and whether through negligence or ignorance has not noticed that the fitment of said part had deteriorated to the point of being ineffective.
It would be interesting to learn if Frans having done the Turbo conversion is not using a free-flow air filter?
Perhaps he has a solution that would be of benefit to all?
I doubt that he is using standard air filtration systems though…

My point was simply, had RGM maintained the vehicle they would have noticed and rectified it.
The filter maintained regularly, I am sure will satisfy 90 % of average users requirements.
There is a ‘sock’ supplied by BMG themselves for very dusty conditions so that in itself acknowledges that if left untended, there may be consequential harm, through dust ingress.
We learn from our ignorance and this unfortunately can be expensive.
Which is why none of us are walking on water.
:naughty:

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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by Alex Roux » 15 Dec 2017 19:39

For those with cone filters (from RGM or anyone else for that matter), how frequently do you need to take it out and clean it if you are touring through dirt and dust in Namibia or Botswana all day and every day?

RGM would obviously not be on standby for maintenance, so doing it yourself is important. I was once told it would be at least daily (given the exposure described above). That would be far too frquent to my liking. There is enough to do when camping as it is.

My impression of RGM is that they are brilliant at making cars faster and reliable for every day racing. But they did not seem to to be offroad specialists to me. Just my two cents
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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by Mystical_Beast » 15 Dec 2017 21:19

Biggles addressed that in his experience the filter is up to the task.

I too would be interested in his experience as to the frequency he has felt the need to clean it.

Hopefully he will enlighten us.

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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by Peter Connan » 16 Dec 2017 06:17

To my mind, if an accessory or replacement part is fitted to a 4x4 and it negatively impacts the service interval of that vehicle, then it doesn't belong on a working 4x4.

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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by David M » 16 Dec 2017 07:15

"I am in no way defending RGM.
In fact I was merely providing an objective view." - Sorry but I failed to see the objectivity. Almost sounded like an advertorial. :lol: :rolling:

"Your post, to any reasonable person.. ascribes the failure to them having fitted a component to your vehicle and further that that component is not up to its function.
Whereas incorrect application, ignorance and negligence is what is at play, more than anything else.
Subsequently someone else has worked on that vehicle and whether through negligence or ignorance has not noticed that the fitment of said part had deteriorated to the point of being ineffective." - I stand by my statement and now that others have taken it further to say - By design it is not suitable for a working 4X4 and as a result is costing me a lot of money. Let others please not make the same mistake. If you want to pound Sandton pavements or drive a vehicle with the suspension design of an ox wagon at 200 km/h it does the job perfectly.

"My point was simply, had RGM maintained the vehicle they would have noticed and rectified it." - The crux of the matter. If you can get to RGM regularly there would be no problem. Otherwise rather do not touch. Of course this automatically disqualifies anyone using their vehicle for serious overlanding or living away from Jhb.

"The filter maintained regularly, I am sure will satisfy 90 % of average users requirements." - And in excess of 90% of people do not drive Patrols. Most owners here use their Patrols for serious trips (look at the response to next years calendar and there are even more longer private trips being done). We all want more power and better fuel consumption but this is far from the ideal solution. I actually run a Sportflo filter on my 4.5 around town but it fits perfectly into the existing box. When I leave for the bush it gets replaced with the standard filter. I tried it on a trip turning it through 90 deg each day but my intake manifold did not look good after and needed a good cleaning. I would imagine extended use would also destroy the injectors. On any forced induction vehicle these problems would be amplified.

"There is a ‘sock’ supplied by BMG themselves for very dusty conditions so that in itself acknowledges that if left untended, there may be consequential harm, through dust ingress." - And by their own admission there is a problem.

Michael Steyn with the help of others has developed a solution that works on TD42's both NA and turbo, ZD30's, TB45's, TB 48's and TB42's but I have no idea as to whether it will work with a supercharger or turbo running in excess of 1.5 bar. A stainless box that takes the standard ZD 30 filter and everything seals perfectly but is also very easy to replace or clean filters.

Now this is by no way a rant at RGM or any other tuning house. They do the best they can with the knowledge at hand based on their experience but I think you may find that the collective knowledge of proper 4X4 ing on this forum far outweighs that of the tuning houses.

A classic example is I have seen chips fitted to 4.5's by Maus, SAC and Van der Linde. Yet when these same vehicles are taken to the accepted Authority/Professor/Guru (Pathmaker) in Gauteng with various problems including pinging the first thing he does is remove the chip. The tuning houses do not always know best especially when it comes to proper 4X4 ing.
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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by biggles » 16 Dec 2017 12:12

Alex Roux wrote:
15 Dec 2017 19:39
For those with cone filters (from RGM or anyone else for that matter), how frequently do you need to take it out and clean it if you are touring through dirt and dust in Namibia or Botswana all day and every day?

RGM would obviously not be on standby for maintenance, so doing it yourself is important. I was once told it would be at least daily (given the exposure described above). That would be far too frquent to my liking. There is enough to do when camping as it is.

My impression of RGM is that they are brilliant at making cars faster and reliable for every day racing. But they did not seem to to be offroad specialists to me. Just my two cents
Maintance of a foam filter? You take it off, soak it in cleaner, dry it and re-oil it. No need for RGM to look at it. I would be interested to hear what caused Clems dramas (disclaimer not saying it didn't happen just what caused it damage the engine. It came off, or just did not stop dirt. Was it maintained?).

So there is a perception not based on any facts that re-usable filters are harmful to your engine in a dusty environment. These filters match the filter capacity of a paper filter. 96%-99%. infact some paper filters tested as low as 93%. So the ability to clean air is as good or better than a paper filter. This will depend on care. Just as you will need to throw away a paper filter, you need to service (wash and oil) the reusable filter. I doubt anyone here uses premium disposable filters and I bet most will be looking for non-OEM part numbers when it comes to service time.

I think the perception is due to them being seen on racer cars and not on standard vehicles. I suspect that is more a cost thing than anything else.

I have the filter serviced with the engine service. This was done at Tour de Frans and his report was filter was OK. This was after abit more than 20K (I went over the interval) and that covered much of Southern Africa!!

So are there facts or are there people arguing from a point of impression or perception? Anything will fail if not correctly cared for. there are pros and cons to both systems. I suspect that it will become a 2SO type discussion. But a well maintained reusable filter works as well as paper element filter.

BMC make a sock for the filter... have you seen some paper filters come with a sponge cover? Also an admission or extra protection?
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Re: Opinion of what she is worth

Post by biggles » 16 Dec 2017 12:20

David M wrote:
16 Dec 2017 07:15
"I am in no way defending RGM.
In fact I was merely providing an objective view." - Sorry but I failed to see the objectivity. Almost sounded like an advertorial. :lol: :rolling:

"Your post, to any reasonable person.. ascribes the failure to them having fitted a component to your vehicle and further that that component is not up to its function.
Whereas incorrect application, ignorance and negligence is what is at play, more than anything else.
Subsequently someone else has worked on that vehicle and whether through negligence or ignorance has not noticed that the fitment of said part had deteriorated to the point of being ineffective." - I stand by my statement and now that others have taken it further to say - By design it is not suitable for a working 4X4 and as a result is costing me a lot of money. Let others please not make the same mistake. If you want to pound Sandton pavements or drive a vehicle with the suspension design of an ox wagon at 200 km/h it does the job perfectly.

"My point was simply, had RGM maintained the vehicle they would have noticed and rectified it." - The crux of the matter. If you can get to RGM regularly there would be no problem. Otherwise rather do not touch. Of course this automatically disqualifies anyone using their vehicle for serious overlanding or living away from Jhb.

"The filter maintained regularly, I am sure will satisfy 90 % of average users requirements." - And in excess of 90% of people do not drive Patrols. Most owners here use their Patrols for serious trips (look at the response to next years calendar and there are even more longer private trips being done). We all want more power and better fuel consumption but this is far from the ideal solution. I actually run a Sportflo filter on my 4.5 around town but it fits perfectly into the existing box. When I leave for the bush it gets replaced with the standard filter. I tried it on a trip turning it through 90 deg each day but my intake manifold did not look good after and needed a good cleaning. I would imagine extended use would also destroy the injectors. On any forced induction vehicle these problems would be amplified.

"There is a ‘sock’ supplied by BMG themselves for very dusty conditions so that in itself acknowledges that if left untended, there may be consequential harm, through dust ingress." - And by their own admission there is a problem.

Michael Steyn with the help of others has developed a solution that works on TD42's both NA and turbo, ZD30's, TB45's, TB 48's and TB42's but I have no idea as to whether it will work with a supercharger or turbo running in excess of 1.5 bar. A stainless box that takes the standard ZD 30 filter and everything seals perfectly but is also very easy to replace or clean filters.

Now this is by no way a rant at RGM or any other tuning house. They do the best they can with the knowledge at hand based on their experience but I think you may find that the collective knowledge of proper 4X4 ing on this forum far outweighs that of the tuning houses.

A classic example is I have seen chips fitted to 4.5's by Maus, SAC and Van der Linde. Yet when these same vehicles are taken to the accepted Authority/Professor/Guru (Pathmaker) in Gauteng with various problems including pinging the first thing he does is remove the chip. The tuning houses do not always know best especially when it comes to proper 4X4 ing.
I think you are tarring RGM with the same stick as Maus, SAc and Van der Linde. As for chip tuning... it is not quite the same as what "proper" performance houses do. I have two RGM vehicles now, the M5 has over 150,000km on its tune and is running flawlessly and still putting less M5s to shame. The Patrol was done at 70,000 odd IIRC and now on 140,000 with no issues besides a leaking oil pipe. They do a lot of development and it shows in their work (and prices unfortunately). Chip tuning is 90% con with people thinking increased throttle sensitivity is more power.
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