More power needed

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Tunja
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More power needed

Post by Tunja » 21 Dec 2015 09:35

Just got back from a Nam trip towing a Xcape and the swambo says I need something more powerful for towing.... :think: having fitted the 285/75 tyres its affected the performance somewhat due to the gearing and when hitting a head wind I was down to 80 and sometime 70kms/hr.

Sooooo where to now? Do i look at the 4.8? will it solve my towing issue as I might be looking at getting the Jurgens explorer which is about 350kgs heavier.

I prefer my manual so can I look for a 4.8 engine and do a transplant? any know issues with electrics or actual fitting? I thought it was just the crank stroke that is different between the motors or is 4.8 a completely new engine? :helpsign:

Have a Van der Linde 1st stage with chip done already - would fitting another injector into the intake manifold help? I have a slight ping they cant seem to eliminate and that would allow me to rev it more when I need to overtake etc. Its pinging at +- 3300RPM

Thanks
'98 4500 GRX Patrol : FR roof rack, ARB Bull bar with 2 spots, OB Drawer system, Dual battery system, Tow Bar, OME suspension, Bash plates, Side Awning, Tinted smash & grab, Van der Linde Step 1 conversion. GY 33" Muds, Tyre TMPS system.

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Re: More power needed

Post by Peter Connan » 21 Dec 2015 14:05

Ernest, firstly, are you joining us at Two Oceans this Saturday?

The 4.8 is a completely different motor with a twin-cam multi-valve configuration. It is electronically very complex and I know of only two guys who have ever retro-fitted these engines. The one is JG Shields, who fitted one to a hand-grenade 3l diesel, the other Duckitt who fitted one to a GQ. My understanding is that the conversion was electronically challenging, but the info is on the forum somewhere.

I would suggest either looking for a GL or talking to Frans about fitting a v8 (I suspect this will be much cheaper).
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Re: More power needed

Post by Tunja » 22 Dec 2015 09:56

I'm away this weekend would have loved to join a trip to 2 oceans Peter, its a walk in the park for a troll - just a 3 point turn needed at boomslang and the last left hand corner to the view point I crawl up in 1st low... :thumbup: while everyone else tries to hammer it up with lots of wheel spin etc :rolleyes:

Should try honingklip 4x4 just before Botrivier / Klienmond turn off - its a lot harder and very scenic once you reach the top.

Thanks for the advise on the engine, I thought it was a lot easier than that. Will maybe look at a 4.8 Auto then.
'98 4500 GRX Patrol : FR roof rack, ARB Bull bar with 2 spots, OB Drawer system, Dual battery system, Tow Bar, OME suspension, Bash plates, Side Awning, Tinted smash & grab, Van der Linde Step 1 conversion. GY 33" Muds, Tyre TMPS system.

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Re: More power needed

Post by bogeyman » 22 Dec 2015 15:54

Make sure the 4.5 is making the correct power on a dyno.
These engines have a tendency to slowly get weaker as a result of clogged and faulty sensors and actuator valves.
That pinging is also a sign that the motor is not totally happy. I have one that starts pinging over 3000rpm when the temp is slightly high.

Chris (Jouster) can tell you a lot about towing with a 4.5 versus a 4.8. He has towed the same massive boat with both vehicles. The consumption figures he nonchalantly quotes make my eyes water.

The 4.8 auto has a lot more power , a larger usable rev range and the auto box ratios are well spaced. Your only concern will be the speed rating on the trailer tyres.

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Re: More power needed

Post by Tunja » 22 Dec 2015 21:20

this was the last time on the dyno - does the figures look ok? a new fuel pump was fitted at same time
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'98 4500 GRX Patrol : FR roof rack, ARB Bull bar with 2 spots, OB Drawer system, Dual battery system, Tow Bar, OME suspension, Bash plates, Side Awning, Tinted smash & grab, Van der Linde Step 1 conversion. GY 33" Muds, Tyre TMPS system.

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Re: More power needed

Post by Picasso » 23 Dec 2015 09:07

Hallo Ernest

.... I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with the power of your 4.5

I guess that those figures were taken on the wheels and calculated back into power on the flywheel ?

As a comparison:

I have a 4.5 auto (....which apparently also had a VDL conversion done)

I had my car tested twice on a dyno

1) @ VDL / Jhb (Highfeld) 96.6 kw @ 4148rpm / Torque 259NM @ 3551 rpm Power measured on the wheel

2) @ Steves Autoclinic Jhb (Highfel) 131.2 kw @ 4000 / Torque 285 NM @ 2500 rpm Power measured on the wheels and calculated back into power on the flywheel.

If your test was done correctly then the power output on your car compares favorably to my car.
The altitude difference deducts presumably ~ 15% of output on my car-engine.

The second test at Steves Autoclinic was done ate the Nissan Dyno Day in May this year.
There were in total three 4.5 Patrols and they were all running around the figure quoted above (+- 5%).

Obviously all the add-ons and accessory will add to the drag and might have an affect on speed and performance (bigger tyres, roof-rack etc.)

So.... I think your 4.5 engines performance is on par or slightly above average.
The driving performance might be slightly effected by the above mentioned add-ons.

Best regards & Happy Christmas

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Re: More power needed

Post by bogeyman » 23 Dec 2015 09:14

Those figures look good.
With 144kw at 70-80km/h it must have been a serious headwind.
I tow a big Jurgens site caravan with my non turbo 4.2 diesel pickup that has a lot less power and 305 mud tyres and very rarely go slower than 90km/h and can maintain 120km/h on open road. Steep uphill kills me though.
My 4.5Gq auto tows that same caravan with disrespect and only the rise in temp makes me go slower on long uphills.(Still running the radiator from the 4.2petrol engine).

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Re: More power needed

Post by David M » 23 Dec 2015 15:01

Tunja wrote:this was the last time on the dyno - does the figures look ok? a new fuel pump was fitted at same time
And there is probably where the problem lies.

The aftermarket pumps and even the one that Nissan last supplied have a smaller diameter hole on the outlet side even though the pressure is correct.

So on the Dyno with minimal resistance power figures show up perfect but in real life on long hills or into wind you are down to 4th and 3rd and the motor is pinging.

Graham Cummings/Pathmaker has some German ones with a slightly larger diameter hole. The difference is massive as the same hills where taken 1 and sometimes 2 hills higher.

I have a speeding fine on a long uphill outside Hilton with 4 adults, everything to be self sufficient for 12 days, fully loaded roofrack including 2nd spare for vehicle and spare for boat trailer and small boat behind - 137 km/h (I was probably in 4th)

As far as pinging goes there is a very informative thread dating back to 2009 - "Search TB45E Pinging"

I also had pinging problems even after everything was sorted and perfect so did a little experiment. Have a mate who has been the Dyno operator at a major tuning firm for over 15 years and based on what I say below he and the firm will remain anonymous as the owner would almost certainly fire him.

Removed the front propshaft so that we could run the vehicle in low range and then cranked up the resistance on the Dyno until vehicle stalled at 3000 rpm in 2nd in 4L and then release the resistance slightly. Now my perfectly tuned vehicle had the timing advanced by 10 deg as the 4,5 loves this when not under stress and you get more power and better fuel consumption but under load it was pinging like hell. Started retarding the timing and the pinging stopped at 6 deg. Advanced it again and it started pinging at 6,5 deg. This was at altitude with 95 Octane and my particular vehicle which has ceramic coated branches, freeflow, sportflo filter and polished ports and inlet manifold - All factors that will or may influence where the pinging stops on a particular vehicle.

Chipping - After we had everything perfect on the Dyno he connected a chip - We could get virtually no more torque or power but it did smooth out some of the little humps BUT it was pinging again. There are a couple of guys on the forum that have had there chip removed and their problems where gone. All the tuning houses will say bulls&%t as this is how they make their money but of course will deny any responsibility when you have to replace your pistons. Refer "Search TB45E Pinging".

As for towing with a 4,5 vs the 4,8. My business partner towed her horsebox with 2 horses in a while ago with mine and then with a 4,8 about 2 weeks ago. She reckons the 4,5 was better under 3000 rpm but above that the 4,8 was in a different league. Interesting observation from an independant. That being said I do not know the particular 4,8 or it's state of tune.
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Re: More power needed

Post by Aries66 » 29 Dec 2015 20:16

Hi
Just something that happened to us a couple years back. Then was still driving a normal aspirated 4.2 D with also 285/75 tires with standard suspension, was towing a friends Offroad trailer and lots off extra gear and supplies. We where on a 4 week trek through the Northern Cape and Richtersveld. When we left Pretoria all went well car pulled the trailer and load no problem. Had to gear down on uphills as expected but never down lower than 100 km/h. Nice highway driving, turned off on to Parys road, first uphill on this nice bumpy road no more speed :thumbdown: geared down 3rd, battling to reach 80km/h, down hills all ok. Continued like this till we reached family at Hertzogville, 2 hours later than normal and calculated. Lucky he owns the spares shop in town, IT MUST BE A FILTER THAT IS THE PROBLEM :eureka: . We decided, not getting enough fuel. Got new set installed, test in town no power problems, off to Upington to meet the rest off the 5 Patrol convoy. Lucky that part off the Freestate are flat so no major uphills.

Just outside Kimberly :think: :think: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: uphill back 70-80 km/h. This lasted the for the first two weeks- fuel consumption :thumbdown: :thumbdown: 4-5 l/km instead off 8. Lucky for me the one 4.5 Petrol who was not towing any trailers started losing even more power than me. Got to Richtersveld Park we decided as it the nearest we will be at help to stay an extra day and see if we can get the cars fixed.

Out comes the laptop and a search on the Ausie Patrol site for any help. As we all know they are big on Patrols.
First we checked all on the 4.5 and all lead to fuel or wiring, checked all the wires we could trace no problem. Change the filters, still same. Now out with the drawers to get to the pump.

What we got shocked us all. As the owner off the 4.5 wanted to make sure all will be going well for the trip, he send the car to be serviced by a dealership(Lucky not in business any more) here in Pta and at the same time to replace the fuel pump. Because the pump is new!!!! we at first ignored it. On removing the pump and inspecting it, all the little impellers are gone!!! Stripping it completely we found pieces of bubble plastic that got sucked into the pump. Resulting in tangling and breaking off the impellers. We then started transferring all the fuel still in the tank to all the empty Jerry cans. With most off the fuel save for reuse we removed the tank, with the tank out we discovered what looked like the rest of the bubble plastic, that fitted nicely over the pump.

We recon the guy must have thought that if it is protecting the pump from damage while it is not in use it surely will let it last and protect it for life when installed with it.
We never found the fuel filter normally fitted on the pump as well.
So after lots off phone calls we managed to get a pump that might fit and is the same size as the one in the Patrol.

While waiting on the pump we start looking for a solution for my problem, on the Ausie site and we got the advice to check the back brake adjuster. It is their to help when the vehicle is loaded to start pre-tention the back brakes.
What happened to me was these was over stressed with my heavy load and the trailer hooked with the still standard suspension. So was basically driving with back brakes half engaged the whole time. We just simply unhooked the tension spring for the rest off the trip. :woo: :woo: Speed was back to normal fuel consumption rest off trip averaged on 6.2 l/km.

:eureka: So what i want it say check those two things, as i see you was towing as well and have a an aftermarket suspension if they did not install an extension that go with the suspension lift.

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Re: More power needed

Post by ricster » 04 Jan 2016 08:58

Very interesting post Louis, something one would easily overlook
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